Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA04262 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 13 May 2000 10:48:16 +0100 Message-ID: <391D2415.CBEE80F1@netvision.net.il> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:44:53 +0300 From: daniella <daniella@netvision.net.il> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de,es,it To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10005122028070.8878275-100000@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
robert,
i find specially enjoyable, telephone as visual versus internet as acoustic:)
daniella
Robert Logan wrote:
> Here is a list for you which delineates McLuhan's notion of visual
> versus acoustic space, daniella - enjoy - bob Logan
>
> Visual versus Acoustic Space
>
> visual acoustic
> sequential simultaneous
> asynchronous synchronous
> static dynamic
> linear non-linear
> vertical horizontal
> left brain right brain
> deductive logic analogic
>
> euclidean non-euclidean and/or
> pre-euclidean
>
> specialism generalism
>
> Newtonian Einsteinian,
> physics quantum &
> chaos
>
> tonal atonal
> text hypertext
>
> isotropic, anisotropic
> uniform
>
> container, open space
> closed space
>
> causal, emergence,
> creator evolution
>
> mechanical electrical
>
> telephone Internet
>
> particle field, resonance
>
> And now I can add
>
> reason common sense
> logical intuition
>
> On Sat, 13 May 2000, daniella wrote:
>
> > bob,
> >
> > how kind of you.
> > you may well be right.
> > even if not, you did separate them into two categories.
> > in the post i was relating to they were treated as synonyms....
> > that, i thought was taking it a bit too far:)
> > left and right side.huh?
> > anybody know of other distinctions?
> > daniella
> >
> >
> > Robert Logan wrote:
> >
> > > Daniella - logic and reason are deductive, reductive, analytic, and left
> > > brained and
> > > common sense and intuition are analogical, based on observations of
> > > patterns, inductive, synthetic and right brained. These two modes of
> > > thought relate to each other if one thinks stereoscopically with both
> > > sides of the brain making use of the corpus collosum. btw I arrived at the
> > > answer to your question intuitively but reported it to you analytically. I
> > > hope this is helpful. It may even be right.
> > >
> > > Bob Logan
> > >
> > > On Fri, 12 May 2000, daniella wrote:
> > >
> > > > could someone please tell how logic, reason, common sense, and intuition relate to
> > > > each other, if they do?
> > > >
> > > > chuck,
> > > > is your argument that in a conservative society, change is not accepted.
> > > > in a changing society, reflection causes confusion causes changing ideas of a non
> > > > conservative nature?
> > > > daniella
> > > >
> > > > Chuck Palson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Vincent Campbell wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > hunter-gatherer environment? Are all our peculiar cultural habits a
> > > > > > feature, as Wilson would say I suppose, simply the result of genetic driving
> > > > > > which can't keep up with the pace of environmental change, and thus are
> > > > > > often 'mistakes' (like the examples you give), or is something else
> > > > > > involved? Does something having a use in our ancestral environment explain
> > > > > > its specific form (or forms) of existence in the contemporary environment?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Vincent - One aspect of this subject has been investigated. I think it's
> > > > > Cosmides (I can find out for you). He shows that even those who are
> > > > > professionally involved with the use of logic - like mathemeticians - have as
> > > > > much difficulty solving certain simple logical problems as the lay public - and
> > > > > have quite a high probability of getting it wrong. They say the reason for this
> > > > > lies in the fact that logic under ancestral conditions was tied to concrete
> > > > > objects and it was only used when absolutely necessary. Under modern conditions,
> > > > > we must abstract out the ability to be logical so we can use it across a broad
> > > > > array of situations. But since our brains weren't constructed to do this, using
> > > > > logic this way can be quite a frail tool.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which brings me to another aspect of this subject. Yes, from all I have been
> > > > > able to observe in two countries under conditions of extremely rapid change,
> > > > > such change does short circuit or make less functional the the processing power
> > > > > of our brain acquired during more stable times. I have confirmed the following
> > > > > in both Brazil (which has traversed the psycyhological distance that took us 2
> > > > > centuries in about 2-3 decades) and the United States: there is an loss of
> > > > > elementary common sense. That's not a joke. Here's some of my evidence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott Adams refers to an incident in his first book where he, too, talks about
> > > > > the same phenmoenon - of how people are more "stupid" - including himself,
> > > > > because of the rate of change. When his tape recorder stopped functioning, he
> > > > > brought it into the repair service -- who pointed out that he needed new
> > > > > batteries; Scott is not stupid, he just developed tunnel vision like the rest of
> > > > > us. He and I both believe that this kind of thing - which happens all the time -
> > > > > is caused by the necessity under situations of extreme cultural change to
> > > > > develop tunnel vision, focusing on only those things which are immediately and
> > > > > directly relevant to making a living. Other more peripheral things get short
> > > > > changed. What also happens is that we must assimulate things that often don't
> > > > > make much sense because we haven't had time to develop a deeper understanding.
> > > > > Computers are a good example. So even in those areas where we develop tunnel
> > > > > vision, our use of common sense is often crippled because it's not used a lot.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have spoken to Robert Kaplan about this loss of "common sense" (for lack of a
> > > > > better term at the moment) and he says that he has noticed it world wide. I
> > > > > could go into examples in Brazil which would knock your socks off, and they also
> > > > > notice it consciously.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am sure this is nothing new. There is evidence that this "memic
> > > > > disorientation" has happened throughout history during sudden changes. It
> > > > > surfaces specifically around the question of meaning. For example, Socrates'
> > > > > constant questioning in 300BC(?) was a manifestation of this. More recently, the
> > > > > question of meaning comes up explicitly during the industrial revolution as in
> > > > > the philosophy of Neitze and later, Satre or Camus. This is not characteristic
> > > > > behavior of people living under stable conditions. People who are living in
> > > > > traditional societies where they have children, remain mothers for their entire
> > > > > lives, etc. etc. do not ask heavy questions about the meaning of life.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is going on here? I think that the conscious mind - the part that is
> > > > > responsible for planning (where we talk to ourselves about various projects,
> > > > > including how we are going to talk to this or that person), which uses a lot of
> > > > > language (as when we talk to ourselves) can only process so much. Yet that is
> > > > > the part we need the most when things are changing fast becasue we can't rely on
> > > > > what we already know - the "intuitive" part of the brain which reaches as far
> > > > > down as the lymbic system.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is an interesting hypothesis based on what I have said: the most important
> > > > > reason that people are so attracted to memetics is precisely because of the
> > > > > disorientation caused by our current rate of rapid change. The meaning of many
> > > > > "memes," if you will, are in the process of transition, and so the depth of
> > > > > their meanings (the network of associations built up in the brain) is rather
> > > > > shallow. The feeling that memes can have little or no meaning or practical value
> > > > > comes from this whole process of rapid change. That is, the meanings of anything
> > > > > don't have a chance establish a rich network of associations, so there is a
> > > > > "thinness" if you will, to our culture. I have noticed this thinness when
> > > > > learning a new language. The words lack enough depth to stick very well, and I
> > > > > make some really stupid errors in reasoning. So in one sense, memetics is a
> > > > > historical product of these times. Memeticists take as their subject a real
> > > > > phenomenon, although they exaggerate it as when they treat memes as having a
> > > > > life of their own. That's why they all - probably without exception - tend to be
> > > > > anti technology. They don't recognize, however, the historical specificity of
> > > > > their observations so they incorrectly generalize their intuitions.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > From: Bill Spight
> > > > > > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 am
> > > > > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Vincent,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At a small
> > > > > > > > social group level, you've got bond-forming and maintaining, but how
> > > > > > > many of
> > > > > > > > his fans does Michael Jordan know (and vice versa)? And I'm sure we're
> > > > > > > > familiar with the concept of widows & orphans in sport, the families of
> > > > > > > > fanatical sports followers who definitely suffer as a result, we're
> > > > > > > talking
> > > > > > > > about behaviours which are quite widespread around the world, relating
> > > > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > myriad of different sports, that seemd to defy being satisfactorily
> > > > > > > > explained by genetic advantage
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isn't sports fanaticism atavistic? I. e., it is not very fit in a
> > > > > > > modern civilized environment, but it probably was in the smaller
> > > > > > > social groups in which humans have lived for most of our
> > > > > > > existence (and it expressed itself differently too, I expect).
> > > > > > > Much the same can be said for the sweet tooth, which is more
> > > > > > > fitted for an environment where you pick fruit from trees, rather
> > > > > > > than one with donut shops.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And thanks for the joke. ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ===============================================================
> > > > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ===============================================================
> > > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > > >
> > > > > ===============================================================
> > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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