Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA28340 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 11 May 2000 21:58:29 +0100 Message-ID: <B6E47FBD3879D31192AD009027AC929C3688CC@NWTH-EXCHANGE> From: Bruce Jones <BruceJ@nwths.com> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa? Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:03:20 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wade T.Smith [SMTP:wade_smith@harvard.edu]
> Subject: RE: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa?
>
>
> >Why can't animals have societies?
> >First what is your definition of a society?
>
> They can- they do.
[BJ]
Thank you
> But, if we accept the sentence "Did language drive society or vice
> versa?" then we are compelled to see the difference between those animals
> that have language, and those that don't, and compare their organization.
> There is much reason to say all animals have a society and that human
> language lends only, uh, culture to the mix....
[BJ]
Not to nit pick here ... but .... define language! If language is
described as the articulation, through a system of signals, of basic
survival needs; hunger, fear, joy, sadness, danger, and lack of danger then
ALL species have a language. Even caterpillars have a language. So follows
if language is required to have a society then ALL animals have a society.
If language is defined in the very narrow context of the ability to
express philosophical and abstract concepts that can be acted upon in a
meaningful manner. Then only man has language and only man has society.
Not disagreeing with you but trying find a tree in a forest.
If we take the stand that all animals have language and all animals
have a society and if memes are an integral part of the language of society
then memetics IS at the atomic level of all interactions. However, if we
take the position that memes must propagate their selfness to survive and
memes can only be replicated through abstract ideas ..... then only man can
have memes and memes are required for society.
my $0.02 ... again
Bruce
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