Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA28116 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 11 May 2000 20:54:28 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01bfbb86$38526940$cf12bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB164@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:17:06 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics
> OK Chuck I think I've got a situation I think shows the flaw in the
> 'usefulness' argument- fashion trends.
>
> In particular trends in what colour of sock is considered de riguer. In
the
> UK, in the early 1980s, white socks were seen as 'cool', whereas now they
> are seen as very 'uncool', but what is the relative utility value of white
> as opposed to say black socks? [let's assume that the black and white
socks
> are made from the same material]
>
> Blackmore gives the example of a hunter who happens to be more successful
> than another, and amongst their differences are the colour of their arrow
> feathers. That difference is copied alongside the successful hunter's
other
> attributes, but it is not consequential. One of the points that Dawkins
> makes, I believe in 'Unweaving the Rainbow', or it might have been Michael
> Shermer in 'Why Do People Believe Weird Things' (editor of The Skeptic
> magazine), is precisely that humans do have apparently illogical and
strange
> beliefs because our perceptual systems are actually far from perfect. So,
> we make associations that can't possibly be true- such as rain dances and
> astrology. We may think that by copying a successful hunter's blue arrow
> feathers rather than the poor hunter's red feathers we will be improving
our
> chances of hunting successfully, or that wearing black socks is infinitely
> more appropriate than wearing white ones. Memetics offers an explanation
> why such misperceptions not only persist, but evolve into complex systems,
> resulting in things like haute couture and haute cuisine.
< <You can make the same association between drivers of a BMW sports-
car and Lada-drivers.The first are easily recognized as macho man; people
who drive a BMW are most of the time dangerous drivers; have more
accidents and drive no way according to the traffic rules.
Lada drivers are dull people, bad drivers, old and with no children.
You may think that is not possible and true, but BMW is trying now for
years to get rid off of that image, with no success by the way.
Audi and Mercedes-Benz are confronted with such alike problems.
Lada is boosting their image by working together with Volkswagen. It wants
to be a " Volks-wagen " ,but the public is scpetical even they now a
concern like Volkswagen is behind the concept of the new model. They
don't buy it, literally and figurative.
BMW bought Rover to take over a piece of the market of family-cars.
They loose out on that,but that is another matter.
I for myself drives a Subaru for years now, and I make easily the assumption
that I am a Worldchampion Rally when I am behind the wheel.>>
> Let me ask you a question. Can you find a utility reason for every single
> thing you do in your life, and for everything you have?
>
> I'd like to know the answer to that one.
>
> Vincent
>
>
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: Chuck Palson
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2000 1:50 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> >
> >
> >
> > Richard Brodie wrote:
> >
> > > Chuck wrote:
> > >
> > > << when you get any belief structure that is widespread, it's because
> > it's
> > > useful.>>
> > >
> > > I think few would agree with this.
> >
> > As someone else said at this site, popularity doesn't determine
scientific
> > accuracy. It is true that many social scientists have very little idea
of
> > how
> > belief structures are related to practical reality. But you give me a
> > belief
> > structure, and I'll show you its use.
> >
> > Let's do this: You obviously don't believe it. You believe that memes
can
> > exist
> > without a useful function. How about I will give you $1.00 for each such
> > meme
> > you can find up to, say $100. If you can't find even one that doesn't ha
ve
> > a
> > useful function, you owe me $100. If you are right, it's certainly an
easy
> > way
> > to make some quick money, no?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > << As I keep saying, religions only change as a way to adapt behavior
> > > (really, the body of law that governs behavior) to the new conditions
> > > introduced
> > > by the technology or economic arrangements. I know next to nothing
about
> > > Buddhism, so I can't comment on that, but I know that Christianity has
> > > changed
> > > through the years (See"The History of God" by Karen Armstrong).>>
> > >
> > > And this change benefits who? The religion, right?
> > >
> >
> > In what sense do you mean that? The functionaries of the religious
> > structure?
> > Yes, I suppose they benefit in the same way that the salesman for a
> > revolutionary new invention benefits. But he can only sell the product
if
> > people
> > perceive benefit. The short of it is this: the most important part of
> > religion
> > is its law giving function, whether that law be formal or informal,
> > implicit or
> > explicit. Religious laws express the idea that these laws are quote
> > literally
> > above any one individual, and religion introduces all kinds of rituals
> > that
> > induce the sense that law is 'above' us in every sense of that term.
From
> > a
> > broader perspective, these laws are what make cooperative behavior
> > possible --
> > which happens to be the essence of human ability to survive. Today we
have
> > formal governments that do much of the work, but religion for many
people
> > is
> > still a necessary supplement. If you want to get a more detailed sense
of
> > how
> > Christianity does this, read Max Weber's works on it - they are quite
> > detailed.
> > His only error was that he got it wrong - the religion doesn't come
before
> > capitalism, it comes as a way to adapt to emerging capitalist
structures.
> >
> > >
> > > [RB]
> > > Dawkins named the meme,for which you can love or hate
> > > him, and generated good controversy with his essay "viruses of the
> > mind."
> > >
> > > <<Is this readily available on the net?>>
> > >
> > > There is a link to it at Meme Central, www.memecentral.com
> > >
> > > <<Give me ANY belief system and I will
> > > show you how it has material consequences. I'm quite serious. Give me
> > > anything,
> > > and I'll demonstrate it.>>
> > >
> > > You'll get no argument on this one. But "material consequences" is not
> > the
> > > same as "useful," is it?
> >
> > OK - useful material consequences.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > <<It might be relevant here to say that Grandpa DOES use the internet
> > now.
> > > Now he
> > > does new repetitive behaviors - like writing e-mails all the time
about
> > > things
> > > that interest him -- and are useful. The reason Grandpa does it is
> > because
> > > he has
> > > a lot of time to learn computers now, and it is, after all, useful to
> > > communicate across distances despite what poor Ms. Blackmore feels
about
> > it
> > > :).>>
> > >
> > > Then how do you explain the fact that seniors are the slowest group to
> > adopt
> > > computers?
> > >
> >
> > You haven't kept up with the stats. It has changed very rapidly.
> >
> > >
> > > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > > http://www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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