Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA20045 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 10 May 2000 12:53:17 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB164@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:51:30 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
OK Chuck I think I've got a situation I think shows the flaw in the
'usefulness' argument- fashion trends.
In particular trends in what colour of sock is considered de riguer. In the
UK, in the early 1980s, white socks were seen as 'cool', whereas now they
are seen as very 'uncool', but what is the relative utility value of white
as opposed to say black socks? [let's assume that the black and white socks
are made from the same material]
Blackmore gives the example of a hunter who happens to be more successful
than another, and amongst their differences are the colour of their arrow
feathers. That difference is copied alongside the successful hunter's other
attributes, but it is not consequential. One of the points that Dawkins
makes, I believe in 'Unweaving the Rainbow', or it might have been Michael
Shermer in 'Why Do People Believe Weird Things' (editor of The Skeptic
magazine), is precisely that humans do have apparently illogical and strange
beliefs because our perceptual systems are actually far from perfect. So,
we make associations that can't possibly be true- such as rain dances and
astrology. We may think that by copying a successful hunter's blue arrow
feathers rather than the poor hunter's red feathers we will be improving our
chances of hunting successfully, or that wearing black socks is infinitely
more appropriate than wearing white ones. Memetics offers an explanation
why such misperceptions not only persist, but evolve into complex systems,
resulting in things like haute couture and haute cuisine.
Let me ask you a question. Can you find a utility reason for every single
thing you do in your life, and for everything you have?
I'd like to know the answer to that one.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Chuck Palson
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2000 1:50 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
>
>
>
> Richard Brodie wrote:
>
> > Chuck wrote:
> >
> > << when you get any belief structure that is widespread, it's because
> it's
> > useful.>>
> >
> > I think few would agree with this.
>
> As someone else said at this site, popularity doesn't determine scientific
> accuracy. It is true that many social scientists have very little idea of
> how
> belief structures are related to practical reality. But you give me a
> belief
> structure, and I'll show you its use.
>
> Let's do this: You obviously don't believe it. You believe that memes can
> exist
> without a useful function. How about I will give you $1.00 for each such
> meme
> you can find up to, say $100. If you can't find even one that doesn't have
> a
> useful function, you owe me $100. If you are right, it's certainly an easy
> way
> to make some quick money, no?
>
> >
> >
> > << As I keep saying, religions only change as a way to adapt behavior
> > (really, the body of law that governs behavior) to the new conditions
> > introduced
> > by the technology or economic arrangements. I know next to nothing about
> > Buddhism, so I can't comment on that, but I know that Christianity has
> > changed
> > through the years (See"The History of God" by Karen Armstrong).>>
> >
> > And this change benefits who? The religion, right?
> >
>
> In what sense do you mean that? The functionaries of the religious
> structure?
> Yes, I suppose they benefit in the same way that the salesman for a
> revolutionary new invention benefits. But he can only sell the product if
> people
> perceive benefit. The short of it is this: the most important part of
> religion
> is its law giving function, whether that law be formal or informal,
> implicit or
> explicit. Religious laws express the idea that these laws are quote
> literally
> above any one individual, and religion introduces all kinds of rituals
> that
> induce the sense that law is 'above' us in every sense of that term. From
> a
> broader perspective, these laws are what make cooperative behavior
> possible --
> which happens to be the essence of human ability to survive. Today we have
> formal governments that do much of the work, but religion for many people
> is
> still a necessary supplement. If you want to get a more detailed sense of
> how
> Christianity does this, read Max Weber's works on it - they are quite
> detailed.
> His only error was that he got it wrong - the religion doesn't come before
> capitalism, it comes as a way to adapt to emerging capitalist structures.
>
> >
> > [RB]
> > Dawkins named the meme,for which you can love or hate
> > him, and generated good controversy with his essay "viruses of the
> mind."
> >
> > <<Is this readily available on the net?>>
> >
> > There is a link to it at Meme Central, www.memecentral.com
> >
> > <<Give me ANY belief system and I will
> > show you how it has material consequences. I'm quite serious. Give me
> > anything,
> > and I'll demonstrate it.>>
> >
> > You'll get no argument on this one. But "material consequences" is not
> the
> > same as "useful," is it?
>
> OK - useful material consequences.
>
> >
> >
> > <<It might be relevant here to say that Grandpa DOES use the internet
> now.
> > Now he
> > does new repetitive behaviors - like writing e-mails all the time about
> > things
> > that interest him -- and are useful. The reason Grandpa does it is
> because
> > he has
> > a lot of time to learn computers now, and it is, after all, useful to
> > communicate across distances despite what poor Ms. Blackmore feels about
> it
> > :).>>
> >
> > Then how do you explain the fact that seniors are the slowest group to
> adopt
> > computers?
> >
>
> You haven't kept up with the stats. It has changed very rapidly.
>
> >
> > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > http://www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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