Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA27683 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 11 May 2000 19:06:03 +0100 Message-ID: <391AB0E6.77967B03@mediaone.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:08:54 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Fwd: Did language drive society or vice versa? References: <391A8056.16E6856F@mediaone.net> <00051116333706.00619@faichney> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Robin Faichney wrote:
> On Thu, 11 May 2000, Chuck Palson wrote:
> >
> >I believe that it is chaos theory says that complexity by itself generates
> >some indeterminancy
>
> No, it doesn't. "Chaos", in the modern, mathematical sense, refers to
> phenomena that are entirely deterministic.
>
> >that you can't predict the exact location of every molecule in a gas, only
> >the net effect of the group as a whole. Perhaps that is where the notion of
> >accident and improbable events fits in?
>
> You are probably thinking of sensitivity to initial conditions, in which
> outcomes are unpredictable in non-linear systems because it is not possible to
> measure the initial conditions with sufficient accuracy. The uncertainty is
> entirely subjective -- it's our problem, not that of the phenomena under
> investigation. Similarly, "accident" and "improbability" are, to the best of
> my understanding, in our minds and not "out there". If anyone can make a case
> to the contrary, I want to hear it, because I've been interested in this stuff
> for a long time.
>
Correct? I don't know. It seems plausible to me that certain events might be so
rare -- or even unique during a very long time period, that the possibility of
lining up two or three of these at exactly the right time would be extremely
unlikely and therefore improbable. If you get either a large complex system or
even a few smaller interacting complex systems, it seems to me that you could get
some chance events like that.
Take the fact that the earth is in a line in the solar system which is virtually
unique in that it does not get many large meteors as do other planets in the
system (Venus, or is it Jupiter, sucks them in with their gravity field before
they get here) is an accident allowed the billions of years necessary for the
development of complex life. Every other planet with roughly our conditions
couldn't support complex life because meteor showers would stop the development
too early.
Now it seems to me that you could say that THEORETICALLY we should someday be able
to understand why the earth is in that particular position if we find out enough
about the history of the universe. But couldn't one say that for all practical
purposes, we can treat it as an improbable event?
Or what of the fact that a special echnoniche is needed to start a species, and it
gets started, but it gets wiped out by another developing predator species before
it gets a chance to grow in population size. How many chances can a species get to
develop? How many threats is it under in the area it got a chance to start?
Intuitively I would say that we could use the word improbable. What do you think?
>
> Am I correct in thinking you cannot now support your claim about the
> improbability of human evolution? :-)
>
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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