Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA13404 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:22:47 GMT Message-ID: <38CE9F00.20F5E7CF@fcol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:20:18 -0500 From: "Robert G. Grimes" <grimes@fcol.com> Organization: Grimes & Grimes, Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Some questions References: <20000314014212.61937.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Dear Diana,
We do welcome you to the list and appreciate both your questions and comments.
Interesting that you should mention that some of our comments should resonate
with a postmodern view of culture. Just recently I had posted a note
humorously threatening to ask Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont to investigate our
list. You may recall that they are the authors of "Fashionable Nonsense -
Postmodern Intellectuals' Abuse of Science." That is one of my favorite books
as is the one you mentioned by Sagan, "The Demon Haunted World." So, the
minute you asked about "truth," my almost reflexive response is sing out,
musically and in a bass modality, from an old popular song, "And the old man
said, 'What is truth?'" Of course, that is almost identical to Pontius
Pilate's question to Jesus and my personal question to many a Postmodernist.
Someone has already mentioned that probably most of us favor "truth" as
something subject to empirical tests whereby we can bank on both applicability,
repeatability and something like statistical agreement with other sources whom
we respect. The signature quote below my name re "Man is not in control...."
etc., probably gives you a better idea of my own perspective. I would probably
mumble something about "truth" being a multiordinal term that is purely
determined by context, etc.
In any event, when one considers the concerted import of eons of evolution on
genes and the various organisms of which they are a part, those entities and
their behavior, one is not immediately over awed at our little young concept of
"meme." But the concept is exciting and the associated contribution of the
nomenclature which is arising from the discussions of memetics will no doubt
prove rewarding, if only in the new perspectives and challenges the theory will
promote. Already it has assisted me, personally, in both understanding and
speaking of human behavior and our thoughts about the underlying chemistry and
interactive effects of social actions, i.e., the cultural/individual
evolutionary impacts on behavior.
Well, even your questions have proven stimulating today so we look forward to
your participation and contributions. Again, welcome aboard...
Cordially,
Bob
Diana Stevenson wrote:
> Hi all - as a newbie may I ask some questions??
>
> Much of what's being said about memes seems to resonate with a postmodern
> view of culture - with the exception that memeticists (so far) believe in
> objective truths which can be found out through scientific methods.
>
> I'm wondering - if genes and memes neither know nor care about the truth,
> but *we* do and we have methods of distinguishing truth from falsehood,
> might that not indicate that:
>
> 1) we are more than just genes and memes
> 2) we have superior abilities to genes and memes?
>
> As a great fan of the late Carl Sagan (and particularly "The Demon-Haunted
> World: Science as a Candle in the Dark) I wonder what he would have made of
> this question. If memes eventually "escape" from us to an independent
> existence, the false ones as well as the true, presumably the devil and
> demons will be among them. This may be evolution, but it hardly seems like
> progress!!
>
> Postmodernists on the other hand see a world in which truth is not found,
> but made; systems of belief are tools, as are the transitory "selves" which
> come into being to meet particular situations and "choose" from the
> cafeteria of cultures. Is this worldview the triumph of the memes? And if
> not how do memes sit with postmodernism? Any ideas?
>
> Diana
> ------
>
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
-- Bob Grimeshttp://members.aol.com/bob5266/ http://pages.hotbot.com/edu/bobinjax/ http://www.phonefree.com/Scripts/cgiParse.exe?sID=28788 Jacksonville, Florida Bob5266@aol.com robert.grimes@excite.com bobinjax@hotbot.com
Man is not in control, but the man who knows he is not in control is more in control...
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore....."
=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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