Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA12122 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:24:28 GMT Message-ID: <006a01bf8690$3589d020$0b12bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <1259947418-771356@smtp.clarityconnect.com> Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:47:30 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Raymond Recchia <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
> At 12:34 PM 03/03/00 -0500, Mark wrote:
>
> >I was trying to better understand what you used to distinguish 'socially
> >derived behaviors' and 'memes.' People use meme in a lot of different
> >ways. I see most falling into one of two general usages.
> >
> >Some people use the genotype-phenotype relationship to define meme. In
> >this case, the meme is some neural activity or circuit configuration and
> >thus analogous to the genotype. Behavior is the phenotype (memotype).
> >Thus, one can say that wearing a suit and tie (socially transmitted
> >behavior) is memotype to the neural configuration is meme (genotype).
> >
> >Blackmore's Meme Machine discounts the genotype-phenotype logic
explicitly.
> > She suggests the behavior and the meme are indistinguishable. The suit
> >and tie are both behavior and meme.
>Raymond,Mark,
I can find myself in Blackmore's logic,but wouldn't it be better to point
out
that * tie* is here a representation of (possible) behavior and that the *
meme*
is here the way in how we,the others observe that behavior!? After
all,wearing
a tie results in some kind of *behavior* (and *memes*) and I who doesn't
wear ties at all have in some extend different *memes* (*behavior*) about
people which do,isn't it!?
Do you follow!?
> >In earlier posts these two competing definitions were labeled 'G-memes'
and
> >'L-memes'. The 'G-meme' got its name from Derek Gatherer and an article
he
> >published in the Journal of Memetics. The 'L-meme' definition got its
name
> >from Aaron Lynch and his JoM article.
> >
> >I advocate the L-meme definition.
> >
> >I was wondering which model/definition you were using. Here is what you
said:
> >
> >>>Just to toss in my two cents on this subject I think we do have to be
> >>>careful to distinguish between socially derived behaviors and memes.
> >
> >Based on your elaborating comments, it seems you are using the G-meme
> >model, equating meme and behavior. The difference between 'meme'
(G-meme)
> >and new individual behavior is the treatment the social group makes of
> >their reaction to the new behavior. You are distinguishing between
> >continuously transmitted behaviors (a social group's memorization of
> >previous innovations) and individual innovations themselves. As best I
can
> >interprete these comments, behaviors become memes when they are
replicated
> >over time by members of the group. In other words, a behavior is only a
> >meme if a social group imitates the behavior.
> >
> Except for the insistence on a G-meme model there this is pretty close.
> Also I would modify the last sentence and substitute 'individual' for
> 'social group'
>
>
> I'm pretty much an L-meme person but when discussing memes as they are
> passed among non-humans it is easier to speak in terms of their behavioral
> manifestations. G-memes do not much in the way of explaining power when
it
> comes to higher level abstract memes like 'the theory of relavity' or 'a
> preponderance of the evidence'. I dot see how these could be described
> purely in behavioral terms.
>
> Raymond Recchia
> Raymond O. Recchia
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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