Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA01649 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:38:45 GMT Message-Id: <200002251837.NAA16568@mail4.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:41:10 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20000311115614.007f9ea0@rongenet.sk.ca> References: <200002241956.OAA07014@mail3.lig.bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:56:14 -0600
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Lloyd Robertson <hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> At 01:59 PM 24/02/00 -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >To throw unmodified objects does not approach the threshhold of
> >tool use, although it is at the beginning of the appropriation
> >and implementation of the physical environment as an aid to bare
> >bodily activity.. That they co-operated in such an action is not
> >necessarily an example of memetics; wolf packs cooperate in
> >serially chasing down prey. Cooperation can be genetically
> >encoded.
>
> If it is normal for this species of monkey to cooperate en mass and throw
> rocks at herdsmen then your comparison with wolves may be apt. But if this
> behavior was abnormal and involved a response to unusual pressures then I
> agree with Mark, at some level memetics had to be at work.
>
It is normal for bands of baboons to cooperate en masse in a
variety of functions; food-gathering, territorial defence against other
babboon bands, etc. If, as seems highly likely, the humans were
perceived as territorial invaders stealing resources, the behavior
does not require any special memetic dispensation. Who would
assert, for instance, that a band of baboons throwing rocks at
another band of baboons trying to drink water at their watering hole
comprised culture? The two situations, however, are for all
practical purposes identical.
>
> The possible counterpoint that wolf packs may, with population pressure,
> invade human areas which they would not normally do, does not really fit
> unless you can show that the herdsman was either a predator or potential
> prey and that these monkeys are genetically programmed to throw rocks at
> predators and/or prey.
>
Neither predator nor prey, but the third alternative; a territorially
invading competitor for scarce resources. To defend such
resources is as natural as natural competition gets; to do so by
throwing rocks is something that baboons are physically equipped
to do, and can learn from other babboons. No one would claim that
a lioness teaching her cubs to hunt was an example of memetic
transfer, but it is at least as complexly concatenated a behavior-
schema as the simple hurling of a stone, involving prey selection,
wind position, stealth, the estimation of distances, and the use of
cover. Lions can't and don't throw rocks for the same reasons that
baboons can and do; their physical conformation. I'm also
reasonably sure that throwing things is not new behavior for
babboons (which are relatively big-brained simians), either; the
novelty lies in their lethal choice of target. Much smaller and
stupider monkeys have been throwing fruit from trees at each other
and at threats to their safety since time immemorial; the behavior
was well enough known among monkeys in Kipling's time that it
forms a part of the Jungle Book.
>
> Lloyd
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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