Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA07011 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:55:38 GMT Message-Id: <200002032055.PAA06683@mail1.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:57:12 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #119 In-reply-to: <00020317535502.00465@faichney> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Reborn Technology
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #119
Date sent: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:46:58 +0000
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2000, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >
> >> This is cut down so drastically only because I honestly believe what remains
> >> to be the crux of this issue between Joe and myself.
> >>
> >> On Wed, 02 Feb 2000, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >> >What is passed via memes is signification - meaning
> >>
> >> Sez who?
> >>
> >Sez anybody with half a cerebrum who is capable of grokking
> >meaning. Flatworms are conscious of their surroundings and can
> >be trained to jump when a signal tells them an electrical shock is
> >immediately to follow (operant behavioral conditioning); this does
> >not make them capable of the complex and interwoven
> >interrelations which comprise culture. Meaning is what happens in
> >the human brain (that does not happen in computers) between
> >input and output, because we have an existential stake in our
> >relationship with our social and physical environment (our bodies
> >are mortal and vulnerable to them), and our choices decide our
> >consequences, and we KNOW these things (self-awareness). This
> >is why those choices MEAN something to us. Animals who are
> >incapable of self-awareness are also incapable of multiple arbitrary
> >(english, chinese, urdu) languages rather than single species-
> >specific instinctual ones, and are incapable of developing multiple
> >or composite technologies (not to even mention their fusion in text).
> >If you are satisfied with flatworm memetics, be my guest;
> >otherwise, you'll have to take humans into account, for the
> >character of any memetic trajectory (or even its existence) is
> >dependent upon those engaging in it. You cannot have a path
> >bereft of either source or goal.
>
> How many times do I have to repeat, I distinguish between physical and
> intentional information, and claim that memes are composed of the former, WHILE
> SAYING NOTHING ABOUT THE LATTER?
>
If you do not take meaning (and those who mean - us) into
account, your attempt is bound to fail to categorize that which it
intends to categorize. Memes cannot exist in a meaning-vacuum,
and neither can an ontology of them.
>
> In fact, I am very interested in the relationships between meaning, information
> and causality, it's just that I don't believe that meaning has a place in the
> foundations of memetics. I'll shout again, in case that helps you "grok" this:
> THAT DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T "BELIEVE IN" MEANING!
>
It does mean that you're wrong about meaning having no place in
the foundation of memetics. Do you even know what the word
"meme" means? Just as genetic characteristics are enGENdered
(replicated) through sexual reproduction, memes are reMEMbered
(lodged in the MEMory) by means of communicative replication
between intentionalities. I have yet to run up against anything
which is replicated by intentionalities that has no meaning
whatsoever. Now why don't you give me a counterexample of a
meaningless meme, or one which does not involve intentional
beings?
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
>
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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