Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA06945 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:39:03 GMT Message-Id: <200002032037.PAA28649@mail3.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:40:54 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: More on what memes are made of In-reply-to: <00020317453101.00465@faichney> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Reborn Technology
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: More on what memes are made of
Date sent: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:37:38 +0000
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> I'd snip some of this quotation, but it's highly relevant.
>
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2000,
> Joe E. Dees wrote: >
> >> On Wed, 02 Feb 2000, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >> >From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
> >> >
> >> >> It occurred to me that what I'm trying to say about physical information, genes
> >> >> and memes could perhaps be made clearer by a little additional explanation on a
> >> >> particular point.
> >> >>
> >> >> Some time ago I came to the conclusion that the trajectory of an arrow, for
> >> >> instance, is just as real as the arrow itself. The trajectory is not
> >> >> "substantial", but it is a pattern based in the material world, and if we
> >> >> examine the arrow as closely as we can, down to the atomic and subatomic
> >> >> levels, we find that in fact it's not very "substantial" either. We are, due
> >> >> to evolution, somewhat better equipped to handle arrows than trajectories
> >> >> (though in fact we're quite amazingly good at dealing with the latter -- watch
> >> >> any ball game, or better still, play it, while mindful of trajectory plotting). But
> >> >> that's no reason to view the arrow as "more real".
> >> >>
> >> >We're dealing in the macro realm, not the quantum, and therefore
> >> >zen emptiness and the buddhist doctrine of the absence of inherent
> >> >reality does not apply.
> >>
> >> Any zen teacher who knows little or nothing of QM would find that a *very*
> >> strange claim. As I do myself, though perhaps for different reasons. If you're
> >> refering to my examination of the arrow, that's hardly central to the argument.
> >> From what you say below, you seem to agree that the trajectory is just as real
> >> as the arrow, which is the point I'm trying to make there. So what's your
> >> problem?
> >>
> >Zen teachers make more than a few strange claims themselves.
> >You seem to be attempting to lay the groundwork for a
> >reductionistic substitution of the trajectory alone for the (arrow +
> >trajectory) system by asserting some sort of arrow unreality; that
> >won't work.
>
> I do no such thing. My point is that arrow, trajectory and system are all
> equally real. You're so keen to find fault, you misread what I write. I won't
> waste my time with any of what followed this silliness.
>
An arrow is both more substantial (being, after all, composed of
substance) and more real than a trajectory, which is dependent
upon the arrow for its existence, and not vice-versa. A trajectory
abstracted from its physical instantiation in arrowflight is an ideal
(that's not real, Robin) cognitive construct; an nonflying arrow is a
concrete real object. One cannot legitimately equate the ideal and
the real.
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
>
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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