From: "Aaron Agassi" <agassi@erols.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: The information theoretic view Was: JOM
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:18:00 -0400
In-Reply-To: <hNUKEUAgu3z3EwIv@faichney.demon.co.uk>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Robin Faichney
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 3:41 AM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: The information theoretic view Was: JOM
>
>
> In message <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJOEJLDJAA.richard@brodietech.com>,
> Richard Brodie <richard@brodietech.com> writes
> >Robin wrote:
> >
> ><<We do disagree, in that I say that there are no cultural replicators
> >that exist entirely in the mind (or entirely outside of it): there are
> >no "mind-based replicators". I don't agree that "the mind" is useful in
> >any definition, being undefined itself, and I say that every cultural
> >replicator (i.e. every meme) exists both inside and outside the brain.
> >To the extent that our definitions overlap -- that is, for items that we
> >would agree are memes, or as close to being memes as makes no difference
> >for most purposes -- I think these are extremely interesting. But
> >they're not all I'm interested in.>>
> >
> >If "mind" is undefined for you, that's really your choice. Most
> people know
> >what it means.
>
> If that's good enough for you, that's fine, but I don't know why you
> bother to participate here.[1] This list is theoretically-inclined, and
> I'll take the risk of claiming to speak for others, when I say that
> "Most people know what it means" just isn't good enough for most of us
> here. Despite your claim to be in line with Dawkins and Dennett, you
> are alone in persistently using "mind" where they use "brain". Because
> you refuse even to try to define "mind", we cannot easily judge whether
> this difference is significant. You're not helping us much, Richard, in
> any sense.
As to a mind/brain distinction in memetics, perhaps Robin Faichney's
definitions of content level identity Vs identity proper are relevant. After
all, who knows how vastly different each brain develops at the level of
particular neural structure? There can be no replication, no identity,
except at content level similarity. The internal encoding is not the same.
And content level is of the mind, an eppiphenomenon of the brain.
>
> >If you don't think there are mind-based replicators, again it
> >is your choice to be blind to that very useful point of view. Memes, and
> >genes, use all kinds of material and processes outside of themselves to
> >facilitate their replication. That does not change the fact that
> they have a
> >particular location that, if they aren't there, nothing happens.
> For memes,
> >this is a mind. For genes, it is a germ cell. The fact that the cycle of
> >genetic reproduction can involve two people mating in an
> airplane does not
> >mean that the genes are "encoded" in the airplane.
>
> I'm tired of pointing out the falsity of your analogies. I have faith
> in the discrimination of most others here, and would rather work with
> them constructively, than waste time and effort trying to make you
> relinquish your heavy investment, which is probably a hopeless task
> anyway.
If you have already explained yourself, I must have missed it too. Don't
demand definitions and then refuse when asked for your own part!
>
> [1] Actually, that was rhetorical, because I do know why you
> participate here: not to help develop memetics, but to protect your own
> slice of the personal development industry by obstructing anything that
> conflicts with the way you use memetic concepts.
Ad homonym!
> --
> Robin Faichney
> Get Your FREE Information at
> http://www.conscious-machine.com
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit