From: "Aaron Agassi" <agassi@erols.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: Re(3): Paper on chimp culture
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:43:25 -0400
In-Reply-To: <B0003941774@hamextw01.htcomp.net>
Chicken and egg questions aside, specific culturally transmitted language Vs
language wetware aside, we do tend to think verbally.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Mark M. Mills
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 1:36 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re(3): Paper on chimp culture
>
>
> At 11:56 AM 6/29/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >Mark
> >(The subject being which came first 'thought' or 'language')
> >
> >>I find the notion that thoughts are 'languaged into existence' very
> >>unsatisfactory. How do you get 'the first conversation' using
> this model?
> >
> >I am likewise uneasy but cannot 'disprove' it.
>
> There is lots of avenues for research. It is just like any other attempt
> to reconstruct evolutionary trajectory.
>
> First, there is ape language research itself. Second, there is brain
> imaging. For example, brain imaging shows how language acquisition occurs
> in different parts of the brain depending on the age of acquisition. This
> technology provides a way to determine similarities between chimp, bonobo
> and human cultural acquisition strategies at the neural level.
>
> In the next 20 years, there will be great advances in neural
> understanding.
> As we know more about neural function, we will know more about
> differences
> in chimp, bonobo and human cognition. By looking at differences in great
> ape brain function and DNA estimates of gene pool differentiation, we
> should have a much better dataset for models of cognitive evolution.
>
> >>It seems much simpler to say the first conversation emerged
> directly from
> >>existing primate consciousness. Most of our culture got over an
> aversion to
> >>seeing human biology emerge from ancient primates, why not say the same
> >>thing for our culture and cognitive processes? It seems this
> should be the
> >>starting point until proven otherwise.
> >
> >Or primate 'grunts'. I don't hold any particular aversion to either. Are
> you clutching at some aversion to have culture
> >evolving from 'grunts'?
>
> Aversion? I guess so.
>
> The 'culture evolving from grunts' model inserts a discontinuity in human
> evolution, a discontinuity that separates human and ape evolutionary
> trajectories. It suggests human cognition occurred after the
> differentiation of human and chimp gene pools.
>
> It seems to me that any discontinuity between ape and human culture would
> require a great deal of scientific evidence. Apart from our
> popular origin
> myths, everything scientific points to continuity. Every study of great
> apes in the wild demonstrates cultural continuity between apes and humans.
> Linguists dismissing ape cognitive ability are being constantly forced to
> redefine 'syntax' to insure only humans can demonstrate the behavior.
> Humans and chimp DNA is 99% the same.
>
> One can propose evolutionary discontinuities, but they need to demonstrate
> an ability to fit all known data better than a continuous model. This
> isn't the case for the 'grunting' model for cultural emergence. Advocates
> of the 'human only' cognitive processes tend to broadly dismiss ape/man
> comparative studies.
>
> IMO, the grunting model's major advantage is memetic. Humans have an
> instinctive need to acquire 'origin myths' and these are replicated via
> memetic processes. Origin myths are weak on evolutionary logic, but high
> in satisfying human need for group identity. The nice thing about the
> 'culture evolving from grunts' model is the delineation of 'insiders and
> outsiders.' The chimps, gorillas and bonobos are 'outside', humans are
> 'inside.' A neat tribal myth. Excellent for rationalizing the use of
> chimps for medical research, hunting gorillas and chimps, etc. It will be
> very difficult to displace this myth. It's memetic fecundity is
> very high.
>
>
> Despite this memetic reality, yes, I'm adverse to origin myths that have
> outlived their usefulness.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit