Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id DAA20709 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:24:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.222.132] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Memes Meta-Memes and Politics 1 of 3 (1988, updates 2002) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:18:19 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F6li8cUj9hM4fnGFU7K00005461@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2002 03:18:20.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[40D5CFF0:01C1B506] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: Keith Henson <hkhenson@cogeco.ca>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Memes Meta-Memes and Politics 1 of 3 (1988, updates 2002)
>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:44:09 -0500
>
>At 03:51 PM 13/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 2/10/2002 11:23:12 AM Central Standard Time, Keith
>>Henson
>><hkhenson@cogeco.ca> writes:
>>
>> > But a good fraction of the memes that make up human culture fall
>>into
>> > the categories of political, philosophical, or religious. A rationale
>> > for the spread and persistence for these memes is a much deeper
>>problem.
>> > The spread of some memes of these classes at the expense of others is
>>of
>> > intense concern to many readers of Reason. If we are to be effective
>>at
>> >
>> > [This article was originally written for Reason, a Libertarian
>>magazine.
>>A
>> > few years earlier I wrote Star Laws for them. Between the time I
>>talked
>>to
>> > the editor about it and the time I sent the article in, there was a
>>change
>> > in management and the article was rejected. ("Star Laws Arel" will
>>find
>> > this article in Google Groups if you want to read it.)]
>>
>>Hi Keith.
>>
>>I don't know if this is beyond Reason, but the next time you send an
>>article
>>to a Libertarian magazine, you might try a title such as "Memes,
>>Meta-Memes,
>>and Markets." I heard about the furor that your article caused with the
>>new
>>editors at Reason. When Thought Contagion came out, it got scathing and
>>inaccurate reviews from Libertarian activists writing in three magazines!
>>The
>>magazines were Reason, Liberty, and Free Inquiry. The latter is not a
>>Libertarian magazine, but the reviewer Thomas Flynn was a Libertarian
>>activist.
>
>I really appreciate the history! Let me add a bit to it.
>
>I guess it would have been the election of 1988, or possibly 1992, not
>sure. In any case it was the year Harry Browne was running for VP on the
>Libertarian ticket.
>
From http://www.lp.org/campaigns/pres
1988 had Ron Paul as presidential candidate and Andre Marrou as vice
presidential candidate
1992 has Andre Marrou as P and Nancy Lord as VP
1996 had Harry Browne as P and Jo Jorgensen as VP
2000 had Harry Browne as P and Art Oliver as VP
Thus, it was neither 1988 nor 1992 and Browne was a *presidential* candidate
in 1996 and 2000.
>
>Someone had handed him a copy of Memes, MetaMemes and
>Politics. He was much taken by it and called me up, asking me to submit
>the rejected article to Liberty, wanted to hold workshops on it, etc.
>
>After the rejection at Reason, I was not keen to send it to Liberty, but
>Browne talked me into it. Again, memory is kind of dim on this, but I
>think I sent them a paper copy. I don't remember if I called them a few
>weeks later or the other way around, but I remember getting a really
>hostile blast from the editor of Liberty--which I thought was really odd
>after having been asked to send them a copy by a national candidate of the
>Libertarian party. He was really upset about it. Seems he blasted Browne
>as well. Next time I talked to him, he had way cooled of on the idea.
>
>The rejections from the libertarian publications was odd in another way,
>they could not express what their problem with the concepts of memetics
>was.
>
>It was similar, now that I think about it, to the total rejection of even
>the *thought* by a scientologists of applying any kind of scientific
>measurement (such as double blind) to scientology. In fact, scientologists
>go further. Their minds completely reject the possibility that such tests
>are needed for *anything.* The ones who post on the net can't even
>describe why you have to take care while making people related
>measurements. It is quiet odd, and I have remarked on it in a number of
>postings over a few years.
>
>I wonder a bit if what we see in both of these cases is that intense
>dedication to a meme leaves you highly defensive about topics which even
>hint that the meme that the focus of you life might be just one of the
>crowd and not the revealed TRUTH OF THE UNIVERSE.
>
>Another example of people rejecting the very idea of memetics was the
>Skeptics. I wrote very early, 1984 or 1985 to them about a memetics
>article. If I remember correctly, that article was eventually published in
>two parts in the Bay Area Skeptics magazine in 1985 or 1986. The Skeptics
>magazine eventually had a meme article more than a decade after I wrote one
>for them. I don't remember the details about why Free Inquiry had a
>problem with memetics. It may have been due to the single person you
>mention.
>
>>I believe it was someone at Reason who told me that they still
>>remembered your rejected article 10 years later!
>>
>>--Aaron Lynch
>
>Yea Ghods!
>
>The concept has run into a bit of opposition. Well, it didn't do them a
>bit of good to reject it. I posted it on the net and while the count may
>be down now, at one time there were at least a dozen web sites where you
>could find it. Memetics may not have taken hold at the level of the major
>magazines, but it sure has among the people to whom being a libertarian is
>just part of a whole complex of future oriented memes.
>
>Keith
>
>
>
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