Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA18371 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:50:55 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D24D@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Memes Meta-Memes and Politics 1 of 3 (1988, updates 2002) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:40:20 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 1] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
<<<I don't see any reason to make such fine differentiations. It is
> all minor variations on a theme of the big alpha male in the sky.>>>
>
<<The reason for differentiation all comes from whether you argue
that
> memes can be beliefs, ideas, or artefacts/behaviours. Some think that all
> three are memes. Those of us in the last group though don't accept 'belief
> in god' or the 'idea of god' to be memes at all. They are already well
> described as beliefs and ideas respectively for us g-meme supporters.>>
>
<The only common factor of memes is the information. Using baseball
as an
> example, the meme is contained in the brains of those who know how to
> play,
> in rule books, could be contained in video tape. Any of these sources
> could be used to teach a group of children how to play.>
>
Well, the lsit has done the baseball thing a few times, and there is
certainly no agreement on where the 'baseball' meme sits, and I for one
don't see it in people's brains. For reasons why, I still haven't see any
better argument than that put by Derek Gatherer in the journal.
<"God" is a component of most western religious memes (or schemes of
> memes--I don't find the distinction very useful). As such it is
> replicated
> well over a billion times. As I have mentioned before in my discussions
> of
> baseball, one way to determine that a person "has" a meme is to see if
> they
> can teach it. As is rather well known :-) this is certainly a feature of
> cult or religious class memes.>
>
Do they have to teach it well or badly- get the rules right or not?
What is satisfactory evidence of successful teaching?
<Sorry I missed the earlier discussion. I find it very had to
imagine an
> understanding of memes which would leave out religious memes.>
>
They're not left out, but it's the religions (that is their written
doctrines, buildings clothing, and ritual behaviours) that are the memes,
not the beliefs. I have a bible sitting at home, but belief in it has never
sat in my home (well not in me anyway).
Vincent
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