Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id DAA08147 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:23:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.222.132] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Why memeoids? Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:18:13 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F22mQxjbZuwkTko6b58000123a6@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2002 03:18:13.0412 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD5AE640:01C1B2AA] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: "Ronan Dodds" <ronan_meme@lycos.com>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Why memeoids?
>Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:27:53 -0800
>
>On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:06:21
> Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Ronan Dodds <ronan_meme@lycos.com>
> >> >Hi Scott, Keith,
> >> >Yes, that sounds strange to me too, though !
> >> >Especially now that Turkey is trying to solve many interior problems
>in
> >> >order to get a membership of the Euopean Economical Union.
> >> >Their warts about religion, torture, imprisonment, Kurds, etc must be
> >> >dealed with.
> >> >One step in that direction is that Turkey allowed NATO warplanes use
> >> >their fields to fight Irak. In the war on terrorism too, I think.
> >
> >> Hold on a minute - allowing NATO to use their country is a HUGE wart!
>The
> >West has a history of covering up and colluding in Turkey's human rights
> >abuses. NATO have a history of totally disregarding human right
>altogether!
> >
> >Hello Ronan, let me be the first to say you are quite welcome!
>
>Hi, cheers for the welcome.
>
> >Oh wee! I see you point, though !
> >>From the Western ( Nato) perspective a logic assumption to make I
> >suppose. Turkey, by allowing the planes to use their ground showed it-
> >self ' worthty ' to join, lets say a few international institutions.
> >
> >>From the outside looking in, yes, allowing the planes in is a huge wart,
> >and some more islamitic countries condenmded the whole thing.
> >But you have to remerber that Turkey lies upon a political/ religious/
> >ideological/ cultural/... fracture.
> >Squeezed between Europe and Asia, IMO the government has chosen
> >for the less painful solution.
>
>I'm unsure of what you mean by this (I've not read the whole thread, and
>I'm not up-to-date on Turkey). What 'solutions' are there to choose
>between? If you mean helping NATO was less painful, I'm sure you're right
>in some regards (as NATO would quite happily create unrest, stage a coup or
>ultimately bomb any country which doesn't fall into line with it's own
>values). Which 'solution' are we talking about?
>
> >Turkey needs in a way the European Economical Unity to stay out of
> >the control hemisphere of the East.
>
>I'm not sure what this means either. Do you mean the control of the
>Islamic world? Or the East economically?
>
> >The West did indeed cover up the human rights abuses in order to get
> >the support they wanted. But now that out of the way, voices are heard
> >throughout the community that if Turkey wants to join in on the benefits
> >of one European Market the problem of the abuse must be settled.
>
>'Out of the way' in what sense? The media over here still covers up these
>abuses. Very little is ever reported about the plight of the Kurds and
>about the regular invasions of Iraqi Kurdistan by Turkey in order to commit
>genocide upon Kurdish people. Turkey is still a good customer for Western
>arms companies, which at the end of the day are turned upon the Kurdish
>people. I would be very suspicious if the EU decided that Turkey was
>'clean' with regards to human rights, especially considering the way in
>which Western bodies such as the EU consider themselves to be defenders of
>human rights. I'm not sure where you're from, but in my country at least
>(UK), Kurds fleeing places like Turkey are treated like criminals and
>deported. There are people being deported to Iraq regularly, because it is
>a 'safe country', despite the fact that they're our official enemy,
>supposedly for their human rights abuses. I suppose that, should turkey
>get EU membership, there would be the advan!
>t
>age for Turkish Kurds that they could move to other European countries
>freely (or would this not be part of the bargain?). Anyway i suppose the
>point I'm making is that, at the end of the day, the EU themselves could do
>more to solve HR abuse by taking action themselves, rather than using cash
>as an incentive for a bunch of genocidal lunatics to change their ways.
>However, it wouldn't be profitable for them, so they don't take action.
>
> >It is however to my understanding, that such solutions are hard to come
> >by, because the ' why's ' of the Turkey 's behaviors are related to
>their
> >being, history and culture. In a way, to resolve some, they must change
> >their constitution all together. And to that fact, some fractions
> > military,
> >religious leaders,...) are not eager to lay down their weapons.
>
>A simple course of action which would go some way towards solving the
>problem would be place an arms embargo on Turkey, and to allow free flow of
>refugees from Turkey to enter our countries. It is telling that we allow
>goods from all over the world to pass through our borders freely, yet we
>won't extend this privelige (right?) to human beings. Just to get back
>onto memetics, a theme I've been developing recently is how private
>property defends itself and extends its influence. Certain ideas (or
>memes) reinforce property rights, while private property (wealth)
>determines to a large extent which memes people are exposed to. I'd be
>interested in any comments on this idea (this is putting it very simply, so
>i may start another thread on this idea, although I think Marx got there
>first).
>
> >
> >And in regard to Nato, I agree totally. Nato just defends what is their
> >' right ' ( so it thinks) and interests, whatever they may be.
> >And when it should have moved where it was really necessary, they
> >went in, unarmed ! Jeeezes !
>
>Again, I think this could relate to the point I'm developing about property
>supporting memes supporting property and so on.
>
> >Enjoy the list,
>
>Thanks very much, I'm enjoying it already. Sorry If the post is a bit
>long, human rights abuse is one of my pet hates, so its got me going :)
>
>Take care
>
>Ronan
>
>
>
Thanx for the critical view on Turkey, but haven't I read this post already
a couple times in the past hour? I think it's replicating.
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