Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA05717 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:42:18 GMT Message-ID: <20020210143712.44645.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:37:12 +0000 (GMT) From: John Croft <jdcroft@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Words and Memes To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <200202040443.EAA12925@alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Ted wrote
> Culture can be divided into intentional and memetic.
> While the "atoms of culture" are always taking on a
> life of their own-- far beyond the intentions of
> their creators-- we are continually regenerating
> culture from the foundation. Even if a particular
> tune is known to be "catchy," if I consciously
> decide to hum it, it's a function of intentional
> culture. Only when it starts playing on its own--
> and continues replaying long after it's begun to
> annoy me-- does it become a function of memetic
culture.
Ted, have you read Susan Blackmore? From what she
suggested, I understand, is that intentional culture
is also a prodyct of the memes. When you have an
intentional behaviour how do you behalve? You
"choose" to act in fashion X. Where does this
"choice" come from? Studies in neurology have in fact
shown that with many so called "intentions" the motor
circuits are actived "before" the neocortex
associative areas where "intentionality" is born. It
is as if the intention is being created *after* the
act has already started. Similar findings of where
intentionality is invented and justified post hoc have
been shown in the split brain tests where the left
brain is asked to explain action which originates on
the right brain. What Blackmore suggests is that
evolving a belief about intentionality is a great way
of hastening the spread, reporduction and veracity of
memes generally.
> I agree that it's important to distinguish between
> what is memetic and what is genetic. But it's also
> important to distinguish between what is memetic
> and what is intentional. In order for the term to
> be meaningful, "meme" must be delineated on both
> sides, from biology and from reflexive
consciousness.
But "reflexive consciousness" is a mimetic creation
according to Blackmore. It's self refertial character
is shown to be an empty set - built around the
linguistic means of perptuating memes - about self and
other, identity and being, and so on. It is a created
construct, constructed from the outside inwards - it
is not something that you are born with, but is
created as a result of internalisation of countless
memeplexes. To establish the veracity of this model,
look at the cases of the 50 - 60 children over the
last 500 years that have been fostered to animals.
They do not seem to evolve such a reflexive
consciousness.
>
> The key issue is whether the unit of culture is
> self-replicated or intentionally replicated by a
> conscious agent. Memes are active. Ideas are
> passive.
Are they? Most ideas I have seen are fairly actively
promulgated. And where does this destinction come
from in the first place? If I accept it and pass it
one, doesn't that make it a meme too (another
reflexive Goidelian loop?). Ultimately autopoesis is
the result of the operation of such memeplexes.
Lets just accept that culture is mimetic... full stop.
Plain and simple.
Regards
John
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