Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA25379 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:50:51 GMT Message-ID: <006401c1aff6$69feb3c0$3e03aace@oemcomputer> From: "Philip Jonkers" <philipjonkers@prodigy.net> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <LAW2-F1125Msn3jnmPF0000bcd7@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Words and memes Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:42:20 -0900 Organization: Prodigy Internet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >> >> >> >"There is bacon in the fridge" is not a meme. It's simple
> > >> >> >> >information. The meme would be "bacon is evil" or "bacon is
> > >> >> >> >fattening" or "bacon is good." That sort of thing.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> That bacon would be evil to two of the people for different
> > >> >> >reasons, and good to a third, because of their differing
cognitive
> > >> >> >contexts [...] qualifies it as a meme (same for fridge).
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Memes promote the autonomy of culture over our conscious minds.
> > >> >> >When we make simple observations of the world around us, we're
> > >> >> >functioning intentionally, using words entirely for our conscious
> > >> >> >purposes. That culture uses us doesn't mean we don't use it too.
> > >> >> >This is the flipside of the basic argument of memetics, that our
> > >> >> >intentional use of culture doesn't mean it's not turning around
and
> > >> >> >working us as well.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> That relates to my contention not one whit.
> > >> >
> > >> >When we say, "There's bacon in the fridge," we're using words. When
> > >> >we say, "Bacon is evil," the words are using us. Only then are they
> > >> >memetic. Words are not identical to memes (any more than to ink on
> > >> >paper.)
> > >> >
> > >> If I say to someone else that the bacon's in the fridge, and they
tell
> >a third person, then meaningful information has been replicated, a
> >necessary and sufficient condition for memetic propagation to be said to
> >have taken place. It would also result in the modification of behavior;
> >the third person would look for the bacon in the fridge rather than in
the
> >freezer.
> > >>>>
> > >
> > >To be replicated is necessary but insufficient to qualify as memetic.
> >Memes are not passively replicated but actively self-replicate. The mere
> >repetition of words doesn't mean memetic propagation is occurring. Memes
> >exploit our conscious interaction in order to replicate themselves from o
ne
> >mind to another. In order for this to occur, the words must involve some
> >kind of interpretation ("bacon is evil") and not a mere statement of fact
> >("bacon is in the fridge"). If it's merely factual, the repetition of
the
> >statement can be accounted for according to normal, intentional use of
> >language.
> > >
> >The memetic hook used is among our most primordial; hunger can even trump
> >sex as a hook, and is only itself trumped by safety, and not even then if
> >one is hungry enough. How can it be maintained that single words, which
> >must be learned and taught to be used, are memetic in nature, yet
> >sentence-configurations composed of them is not, is exceedingly strange.
> > >
> > >Ted
> > >
> It seems to me that if you tell someone "The bacon is in the fridge," you
> have used a meme to transfer information. But if you come home and say,
"I
> brought home the bacon," to mean "I completed my assignment," and no one
has
> used that combination of words to make that assertion before, then you
have
> created a new meme. And if the person you said it to starts using the
same
> combination of words to mean the same thing, you have transmitted that
meme,
> although your friend is just using a meme rather than creating one.
>
> In my scheme, all the words you use are memes that have been created by
> someone at some time for some purpose. New combinations are new memes the
> minute they are transmitted. The new memes die out if the receiver does
> not, in turn, pass them on. A good ad man invents new memes every day.
> Budweiser's ad agancy took a common phrase, "What's up?" and a catchy way
of
> saying it, invented, probably, by some friend or acquaintance, and put it
in
> a Superbowl commercial. From here, "Wazzaaaa!" was spread to millions of
> people.
>
> The person who first used it to amuse and influence his friends was an
> inventor. He was just like the first man to realize he could chip the
edge
> of a rock to make it sharp instead of having to go in search of one. The
> people who picked up the practice were meme users. People who improved on
> the theme were also inventers and if enough of the tribe or tribes started
> using the technique, the meme became part of their culture. What we call
> culture is just the accumulation of these inventions by ordinary people
and
> not so ordinary people using and passing on ideas and techniques in the
> course of their daily lives.
>
> That some ideas are more useful or appealing to the people who pick them
up
> does not mean the ideas are using us. Ideas don't use anyone. People use
> ideas. Other people borrow them for a number of reasons, but the ideas do
> not impose themselves on anyone. A chipped rock has no will of its own.
A
> sound can impress the people who hear it, but it does not do so knowingly.
> Only the people who hear it can place a value on it and use it again for
> their own purposes.
>
> Giving memes anthropomorphic qualities does not advance the science of
> memetics (if it ever becomes one). Even though, over time, the hand and
arm
> that holds the hammer is reshaped by it, it was not the will or desire of
> the hammer that caused that change. It was the will and desire of the
> carpenter who wanted to use it that much.
>
> Grant
It should come as no surprise that I fully second Grant. Well said Grant...
Philip.
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