Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA23896 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:56:53 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: cheetah.nor.com.au: Host [202.147.129.230] claimed to be green-machine Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20020207184023.006e6cb8@pophost.nor.com.au> X-Sender: jeremyb@pophost.nor.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:40:23 +1100 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Jeremy Bradley <jeremyb@nor.com.au> Subject: Re: Words and memes In-Reply-To: <003101c1af6f$12cf7120$3524f4d8@teddace> References: <20020202025534.81703.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20020203204534.00a292a0@mail.clarityconnect.com> <3.0.1.32.20020205204753.006ae9f4@pophost.nor.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
At 04:33 PM 6/02/02 -0800, you wrote:
>> >If "meme" is taken to be equivalent to "idea," then it becomes culturally
>> >universalized and ceases to have meaning. On the other hand, if
>> >"meme" is equated with "learned behavior," then it becomes biologically
>> >universalized and also ceases to have meaning. Any term that can be
>> >collapsed into another term is just an abstraction. It has no existence
>> >outside of the word we've made up for it.
>> >
>> >Ted
>> >
>> >
>> Hi Ted
>> Good points. What if 'meme' is simply a word signifying a strand of
>> cultural information which resides in cultural artefacts (even a hammer)
>> which enables the replication of the culture?
>> Jeremy
>
>We've been dealing with this on the Abstractism thread. My view is that
>information is not a property of matter. We can have a chemist examine a
>hammer and report back on all its properties. The property of "hammerness"
>will not be among them. Neither its shape nor its potential uses make it a
>hammer but only our interpretation of it when see it or use it. Cultural
>artifacts can help spread memes, but the memes themselves are in our minds.
>
>Ted
>
Thanks Ted
I've been trashing most of the abstractism thread due to time constraints.
As a journeyman boat-builder I would comment that, regardless of the
chemists report, all experienced woodworkers would, after examining the
hammer, not only report that the hammer was a hammer but what kind, its
quality, its specific uses, and a raft of other information.
Even in Platonic parallels, if I find an ancient rusted hammer its
'hammerness' will call to the perfect hammer that I have in my mind.
Jeremy
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