Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id CAA15503 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:57:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.222.132] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Apoptosis Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:52:12 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F280XAqCfQzbXxbH1aM0000b6c2@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2002 02:52:12.0317 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C6434D0:01C1ADF0] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Apoptosis
>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:08:29 -0500
>
>Hi John,
>
>A very interesting example. Reminds me of the old 'ontogeny
>recapitulates phylogeny' adage. Genes and memes that are vestiges of
>earlier organisms/memeplexes that are passed because of their value in a
>developmental process.
>
>Ray Recchia
>
Unfortunately, your allusion to the old "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny"
adage is itself one of those horrible bits of historical baggage that
students sometimes get saddled with before realizing that Haeckel
oversimplified the interface of evolution and development beyond the point
of absurdity.
Maybe Wilkins might incorporate a little von Baerian divergence, where
learning might proceed from the more general rudiments of knowledge towards
the more specific details, if such a biological grounding *could* carry over
to cultural processes. Probably too messy for Karl Ernst von Baer even,
though I'm sure Wilkins could pull it off. Much too messy for a Haeckelian
analogy, since "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" doesn't even do well in
biology, the field "ORP" supposedly explains.
The apoptosis bit, rusty as I am on it (as with most things) reminded me of
Logan's Run, where the people get done in during Carousel. That's a
*horrible* way to look at it, which is why biological analogies sometimes
don't carry over too well when looking at human behavior. Lorenz made some
retrospectively chilling comparisons as discussed by Frans de Waal in _The
Ape and the Sushi Master_. I've got Ute Deichmann's (cited by de Waal) book
_Biologists under Hitler_, but haven't had a chance to delve into it yet.
Too many books, too little time. I've also got Daniel Gasman's _Haeckel's
Monism and the Birth of Fascist Ideology_, but also haven't gotten around to
that one either.
I hope the world doesn't go the technocratic way of _Logan's Run_. We've
already had one extremely nasty run with that sort of thing.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Wilkins <wilkins@wehi.edu.au>
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:35:32 +1100
>Subject: Re: Apoptosis
>
> > Forgive the top posting:
> >
> > Apoptosis is the genetically controlled death of cells based on the
> > signals they receive from their neighbours. It is a form of cellular
> > altruism that makes sense only at the level of organism selection -
> > those organisms that have a failure of apoptotic mechanisms in some of
> > their cells end up with cancer or developmental malformations or
> > diseases like elephantisis.
> >
> > Memes could only be "programmed" to extinguish themselves if they were
> > carried as part of a developmental program for a larger memeplex. And
> > instance might be the teaching of billiard ball physics to students
> > before they learn about the joys of QM and relativity theory.
> >
> > A better instance might be the "idea gas law" - teach them that first,
> > then start teaching them about its failures, under P's that make van
> > der
> > Waals forces significant, etc. In this respect those propaedeutic memes
> > might be seen as scaffolding for later more adaptive memes in the
> > context of more sophisticated "ecologies" (ie, technologies).
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at 03:07 AM,
> > <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Kenneth
> > >
> > > Little confused by the question. Not sure how mutation rate links in
> > to
> > > apoptosis. Martyrdom would be a rough correlate to apoptosis i
> > suppose
> > > although the analogy between cell death for genes and person death
> > for
> > > memes is not a great one. Closer would just be death of an organism
> > for
> > > the kin selection advantages and death of a human and the memes
> > he/she
> > > carries for the advantage in propagating those memes. We have hashed
> > > over martyrdom repeatedly on this list especially in the wake of the
> > > September bombings.
> > >
> > > In terms of memes that alter other memes mutation rates I guess one
> > > could
> > > point to democracy and the scientific method. Both of these memes
> > > survive because of their value as forces for generation and selection
> > of
> > > other memes. Genetic analogies would be all the genes that promote
> > and
> > > control recombination.
> > >
> > > Ray Recchia
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be>
> > > To: <kennethvanoost@myrealbox.com>
> > > Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:38:48 +0100
> > > Subject: Apoptosis
> > >
> > >> Hi all, a question !?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Apoptosis, the death response of cells.
> > >> Is there a parallel in neurobiology, i/e/, is the mutation rate of
> > >> memes linked
> > >> to the death of other memes !?
> > >>
> > >> Anyone !?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Kenneth
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > John S Wilkins
> > Head, Communication Services
> > The Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research
> > Parkville, Victoria, Australia
> >
>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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