Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id DAA08652 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 2 Feb 2002 03:49:05 GMT Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:43:21 -0800 Message-Id: <200202020343.g123hLw03973@mail10.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [66.156.194.7] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #916 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:54:34 +0000 (GMT)
> John Croft <jdcroft@yahoo.com> Re: memetics-digest V1 #916 memetics@mmu.ac.ukReply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>Joe, Ted, and Keith on the activity of memes to
>duplicate themselves suggested that
>
>> >To be replicated is necessary but insufficient to
>> >qualify as memetic. Memes are not passively
>> >replicated but actively self-replicate. The mere
>> >repetition of words doesn't mean memetic
>> >propagation is occurring. Memes exploit our
>> >conscious interaction in order to replicate
>> >themselves from one mind to another.
>
>I would strongly disagree. Memes come in many kinds.
>Some memes do invest a great deal in "actively self
>replicating". Others do not. Still others invest
>almost nothing, "piggybacking" on the active ones.
>
>It was Blackmore's contribution to recognise any
>replicable learned behaviour has the character of a
>meme. "The bacon is in the fridge" from the moment it
>is repeated by a second person is a meme. Whether it
>gets repeated a third time, or a fourth depends upon
>other circumstances, some of which the mem has "under
>control" and others which are contextual and
>environmental. But this is the same about gene
>duplication also. It is the meaning behind the meme
>that will determine the number of repetitions it gets.
> For instance, if you are living in a community of
>baconophiles "The bacon is in the fridge" would be
>duplicated many times. But the same contextual
>fashion is found in "bacon is evil" also operate. In
>a community of "bacon is evil" people, it would only
>duplicate if bacon were present, and a believer were
>wishing to let otyhers know. Both are composed of
>sub-memes. "Bacon" by itself is a meme, if
>duplicated. "Fridges" certainly are memes in their
>own right. A whole culture of "bacon" and "fridge"
>using can evolve to duplicate both. This operates in
>the same way that termite fishing operates as a meme
>amongst Gombe chimpanzees.
>
>Thus Ted wrote
>> >In order for this to occur, the words must involve
>> >some kind of interpretation ("bacon is evil") and
>> >not a mere statement of fact ("bacon is in the
>> >fridge"). If it's merely factual, the repetition
>> >of the statement can be accounted for according to
>> >normal, intentional use of language.
>
>and Keith replied
>> Good way to put it. You can't call everything a
>> meme or it becomes a useless word.
>
>Again I would disagree with you both here. Everything
>that is culturally duplicated and diseminated is a
>meme. (Not just statements with interpretation - for
>instance - a sung melody is a meme, a gesture (eg
>shaking hands in greeting) is a meme, washing potatoes
>in the sea before eating them is a meme. It is the
>fact of duplication that makes it mimetic. If not
>duplicated, but learned individually with every
>generation, or if "instinctual" and passed genetically
>then it is not a meme. "Fridges", "bacon" and putting
>"bacon" into "fridges" are all mimentic, specific to
>one culture, and all "seek" replication.
>
>Regards
>
>John
>
True enough; if we restrict memetics to value-statements and exclude statements of fact or logic, even if they are widely propagated/replicated, we have changed the definition of what constitutes a meme (which I consider to be a nonrandom (that is, meaningful) and noninstinctual or noninnate (that is, culturally or societally specific rather than species-mandated) datum that may be stored in neuronal/synaptic configurations or artifacts and presented or represented in behavior or artifacts). Truth-value should not be a determinant of memetic status; significance, contingency and replicability should be.
>
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>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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