Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id CAA08533 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:59:52 GMT Message-ID: <20020202025434.81461.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 02:54:34 +0000 (GMT) From: John Croft <jdcroft@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #916 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <200202020202.CAA08359@alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Joe, Ted, and Keith on the activity of memes to
duplicate themselves suggested that
> >To be replicated is necessary but insufficient to
> >qualify as memetic. Memes are not passively
> >replicated but actively self-replicate. The mere
> >repetition of words doesn't mean memetic
> >propagation is occurring. Memes exploit our
> >conscious interaction in order to replicate
> >themselves from one mind to another.
I would strongly disagree. Memes come in many kinds.
Some memes do invest a great deal in "actively self
replicating". Others do not. Still others invest
almost nothing, "piggybacking" on the active ones.
It was Blackmore's contribution to recognise any
replicable learned behaviour has the character of a
meme. "The bacon is in the fridge" from the moment it
is repeated by a second person is a meme. Whether it
gets repeated a third time, or a fourth depends upon
other circumstances, some of which the mem has "under
control" and others which are contextual and
environmental. But this is the same about gene
duplication also. It is the meaning behind the meme
that will determine the number of repetitions it gets.
For instance, if you are living in a community of
baconophiles "The bacon is in the fridge" would be
duplicated many times. But the same contextual
fashion is found in "bacon is evil" also operate. In
a community of "bacon is evil" people, it would only
duplicate if bacon were present, and a believer were
wishing to let otyhers know. Both are composed of
sub-memes. "Bacon" by itself is a meme, if
duplicated. "Fridges" certainly are memes in their
own right. A whole culture of "bacon" and "fridge"
using can evolve to duplicate both. This operates in
the same way that termite fishing operates as a meme
amongst Gombe chimpanzees.
Thus Ted wrote
> >In order for this to occur, the words must involve
> >some kind of interpretation ("bacon is evil") and
> >not a mere statement of fact ("bacon is in the
> >fridge"). If it's merely factual, the repetition
> >of the statement can be accounted for according to
> >normal, intentional use of language.
and Keith replied
> Good way to put it. You can't call everything a
> meme or it becomes a useless word.
Again I would disagree with you both here. Everything
that is culturally duplicated and diseminated is a
meme. (Not just statements with interpretation - for
instance - a sung melody is a meme, a gesture (eg
shaking hands in greeting) is a meme, washing potatoes
in the sea before eating them is a meme. It is the
fact of duplication that makes it mimetic. If not
duplicated, but learned individually with every
generation, or if "instinctual" and passed genetically
then it is not a meme. "Fridges", "bacon" and putting
"bacon" into "fridges" are all mimentic, specific to
one culture, and all "seek" replication.
Regards
John
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