Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id JAA03366 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:26:56 GMT Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 01:22:36 -0800 Message-Id: <200201280922.g0S9Maq00930@mail21.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [65.80.160.154] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Selfish meme? Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Philip Jonkers" <philipjonkers@prodigy.net> <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Re: Selfish meme?Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:52:19 -0900
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>Philip:
>> >>I see an even stronger relationship:
>> >>Words *are* memes (but not all memes are words).
>Grant:
>> >Exactly so, so why can't the study of words and how they are created and
>> >propogated provide clues to the essence of all memes as well as defining
>> >them, where they come from and what they do? We have a pretty good
>handle
>> >on words and language, so why is it so hard to understand what memes are
>> >in general? How can people deny that memes exist without saying that
>> >words don't exist? Or saying that words are not memes? It's an
>illogical
>> >arguement.
>> >
>> >Grant
>
>Keith:
>> I really wish the list members would illustrate with examples. It is my
>> considered opinion that most of the time words are just words and not
>> memes. For example, "idea" is about as close as you can get to "meme."
>If
>> you put it in the phrase "an idea that is passed on to another person" you
>> have the "meme about memes." As I have mentioned, one of the shortest
>> memes I know is Watt's phrase "separate condenser." It would have been
>> instantly understood by engineers of the time because they knew where the
>> big loses were happening in the crude engines of the day.
>
>What property should a meme have in order for you to call it a meme? From
>the looks of your reply it seems a meme should have meaning. But that again
>every word has a meaning because if you omit any word in a sentence either
>its
>meaning is changed or the sentence becomes non-sensical. Consider the
>trivial
>sentence: 'The bird flies to its nest.' and try to omit any word without
>changing its
>meaning. Therefore every word has a meaning and every word is memetic as
>it can be transmitted to other hosts.
>
>Talking about shortest memes: what about acronyms? Laser for instance
>or radar? Those are memes too, most people don't even know what the
>abbreviations stand for. Do you? Even shorter ones: CIA, FBI all are memes.
>Is it really necessary to know what the abbreviation stands for when you
>know their rough meaning?
>
>Even more extreme, what about reading marks: for example,
>the exclamation mark of which Kenneth is so fond of using.
>Or the German `umlaut', or those weird Swedish dots and dashes on or through
>characters? They all carry meaning as they change
>the semantics when omitted. They can all have unique properties and they can
>all be transmitted (by whatever means), they all are memetic I contend.
>
>> Memes don't have to be expressed in words. You would not have to use a
>> single word to show someone how to chip out a "killer frisbee" a million
>> and a half years ago, and the learned songs of birds and whales are memes
>> without words.
>
>Precisely so. According to the latest poll here on the list we have
>identified four
>modes of transmission: verbal, depiction, and ...?? When AI machines emerge
>they will too produce memes (see the Meme-Machine) and transmission of
>memes will happen entirely electronic as software exchange between `smart'
>computers.
>
>Philip.
>
Showing (demonstration), Telling (discourse), Drawing (actually, any construction of a likeness, even miming), Writing.
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a book? Want a deal? No problem AddALL!
http://www.addall.com compares book price at 41 online stores.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Jan 28 2002 - 09:52:50 GMT