Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA21903 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:17:40 GMT Message-ID: <014501c1a4ae$96506340$6621aace@oemcomputer> From: "Philip Jonkers" <philipjonkers@prodigy.net> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <200201230401.g0N41ER03276@mail13.bigmailbox.com> Subject: Re: necessity of mental memes Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:10:12 -0900 Organization: Prodigy Internet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Keith:
> >So you can look back and state with confidence that everything that
> >happened including any memes you picked up were either caused or
> >random. You can even say that the future is the same way. But it makes
no
> >difference in the operation sense because you will always feel you have
choice.
Joe:
> this view reduced humans to conduits, totally bereft of any causal
efficacy of their own whatsoever. And also, in contradiction to what you
have previously asserted, choice and responsibility for the consequences of
those choices are logically correlative. If we have no choices, then we own
no responsibility for the consequences of our actions, for we could not have
chosen another course.
> I consider it patently absurd to assert that every flickering thought and
every crystal pattern on every snowflake, every wind current and the
topography of every grain of sand was written in the fabric of the universe
one Planck instant after the Big Bang. Even the three-body problem is
theoretically unsolveable in physics, due to the complex interrelations of
feedback and feedforward between multiple components of a complex system.
> But all this does not matter to the acolyte at the superdeterminist altar;
they believe that they have no choice to believe as they do, and that should
they change their belief, that they had no choice but to do that, also; thus
they have locked themselves in a cognitive trap. But there is a
counter-trap that even trumps that one, and that indeed is logically
necessary for it to be proferred. And this is the irrefuteable point that
no one can noncontradictorally argue for such a position as
superdeterminism, for to do so presupposes an exercise of the verty free
will which the contention denies. In other words, their arguments (or
anything else they say) are not their own; they are marionettes on strings,
mouthing syllables that likewise were inscribed in the very fabric of the
Big Bang. This reduces their arguments to meanoinglessness, and
irretrieveably removes even the status of argument from them, for if their
contentions are indeed correct, they can not logically ev!
> en be truly meant by their proponents..
Good point Joe. I believe the answer lies somewhere in the middle of a
abstract pure
free will and will imposed by already acquired memes. An unpredicatable
factor
may be the type of emotion or mood the host has at time of potential
adoption. By the
the complexity of the human body mood is untractable as it is but by being
also a
function of the environment (other humans) it makes it even more
unpredicatable.
I don't know how this unpredictability extends to average behavior though.
Philip.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Jan 24 2002 - 08:01:22 GMT