Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA12067 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 21 Jan 2002 04:30:46 GMT Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:26:23 -0800 Message-Id: <200201210426.g0L4QN903454@mail3.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [66.156.194.69] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sensory and sensibility Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:07:56 -0500
> memetics@mmu.ac.uk Ray Recchia <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com> Re: Sensory and sensibilityReply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>
>
>
>Philip
>
>
>
>At 08:06 PM 1/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Ray:
>> >Doesn't the fact that animals can dream mean that
>>they have a self? I have
>> >less objections to your term 'self-awareness' even
>>though I'm not fond of
>> >it either. In any case Irene Maxine Pepperberg's
>>work with parrots
>> >demonstrates that these animals are capable of using
>>words if properly trained.
>>
>>Indeed, IIRC it has been reported that cats have a REM
>>sleep-phase. But to infer from this that cats have
>>an actual abstract representation of other cats,
>>and of themselves... hmmmm, it may be on a very, very
>>crude level. I think it would be more likely that
>>REM sleeps with an abstract meaning occurs with
>>better equiped animals, like primates for instance.
>>
>>Philip.
>
>
>Oh, I suspect that the level of abstraction most animals are capable of is
>very limited. I object to those who claim that animals are incapable of
>abstraction altogether. The evidence indicates otherwise. (See most recent
>previous post - this topic - for more on parrots)
>
>I also object to those who claim that animals don't have a 'self'. When my
>dog is sleeping and she starts whimpering and twitching her legs I can tell
>that she's having a nightmare. If there were no self how could she have a
>nightmare? And doesn't that REM phase in animals indicate my dog is
>dreaming? Doesn't that Rapid Eye Movement show that she is visually
>tracking something inside her head in the same way it works with humans?
>
Animals can supposedly rerun a recorded tape, or a confabulation of several of them, that features a dynamic perceptual array which we might identify as 'chasing prey', but this does not mean that the animal, awake or dreaming, can or does explicitly identify the perspective from which the array would issue as itself.
>
>Ray Recchia
>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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