Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA09873 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:26:26 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.222.132] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: The necessity of mental memes Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:22:06 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F261f7P4aN0heFxLA8u000139f1@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jan 2002 17:22:07.0130 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC509FA0:01C1A1D6] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: The necessity of mental memes
>Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:35:52 -0800
>
>>
>> > memetics@mmu.ac.ukDate: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:59:55 -0500
>> > "Philip Jonkers" <PHILIPJONKERS@prodigy.net> Re: The necessity of
>>mental
>>memesReply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>> >
>> >Joe:
>> >>what no one has been able to explain to me is how, in
>> >the absence of a mental storage and percepttion/action
>> >translation pathway between the perception of
>> >another's actions and the replication of those actions
>> >by oneself, how the actions of one could ever become,
>> >by apprehension, learning and imitation, the actions
>> >of another.
>> >
>> >I guess your interesting perception is based on a
>> >understandable misconception.
>> >What the guys in the artifact-behavior meme-camp argue
>> >is that it is wrong to speak of memes residing in the
>> >brain for no other reason that the don't fit with any
>> >of the current definitions. They are undetectable,
>> >highly personal and non-uniform in stored form.
>> >And they are right I think, Derek
>> >Gathererer has made a good job argueing that.
>> >They probably don't deny occurrence of those mental
>> >processes which eventually lead to meme-processing
>> >but they just consider them to fall outside the range
>> >of applicability of memetics.
>> >
>> >You can then go either two ways. One, is to retain the
>> >definition of the meme and abandon the whole
>> >meme-in-head concept and limit meme-theory to apply to
>> >only cultural artifacts and/or behavior, both of which
>> >classes do fit with definition.
>> >The other one I personally favor is to alter the
>> >definition of the meme in such a way that it also
>> >encompasses memes residing in the head. I think
>> >two steps in the right direction would be:
>> >1) to get rid of the meme-as-unit insistence, as there
>> > are virtually no atomistic memes I contend.
>> >2) admit that memes can assume different forms while
>> > conserving associated meaning and head on to
>> > a more abstract semantic definition of the meme.
>> >
>> >Philip.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >
>> >Philip Jonkers.
>> >
>>A third is to access the PET scan and fMRI studies that indicate
>>particular
>>cortical energy usage changes in specific areas correlated with the
>>performance of particular tasks, both physical and mental. the gun is
>>smoking, and internal meme location no longer may be dismissed on the
>>grounds of a lack of empirical evidence. Of course, we are not able to
>>decode thses indications in a fine-grained manner, but we DO know that
>>when
>>a person listens to music, or reads poetry, or reads text, or imagines a
>>landscape, or performs mental mathematical calculations, or remembers a
>>word string, that in each case, a different portion of the brain burns
>>more
>>sugar (meaning that it needs more energy because it is being used).
>> >
>I think we store most of the memes we adopt in our brains. When you want
>to
>repeat a behavior you have picked up from someone else, where do you get it
>from the next time? Isn't that what culture is in an individual? We
>operate with a collection of memes we picked up in various times and places
>as the result of interacting with other members of society (this includes
>reading and watching television, etc.). How do you know the "right" thing
>to do at any time in any situation? It has either become a habit that
>requires little thought or you choose from a store of behavioral options
>you
>have accumulated during a lifetime of watching and interacting with others.
>And where else would you keep such a store of knowledge but in your brain?
>
>Grant
>
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>
I'm wondering how Joe makes the leap from PET/fMRI studies and "memes" being
in the head. Maybe if one *assumes* the mantra of "memes" and views the
world through such lenses one might interpret such studies as confirming
pre-set biases. One winds up seeing smoking guns everywhere one looks.
OTOH are PET and fMRI *researchers* *themselves* saying that they are
finding internal memes? If so, what references to the peer-reviewed journal
research literature can inquiring minds peruse? Yes I'm automatically
excluding pop-sci books.
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