Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA08146 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 20 Jan 2002 04:25:50 GMT Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:21:27 -0800 Message-Id: <200201200421.g0K4LRG12148@mail9.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [65.80.162.26] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sensory and sensibility Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com> memetics@mmu.ac.uk Re: Sensory and sensibilityDate: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:01:35 -0800
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>>
>>Joe,
>>
>>At 11:06 PM 1/18/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>> >Salice wrote
>>> >Is the 'self' required for memetic processes?
>>
>>And you replied
>>
>>> >
>>>It is necessary for communication by means of a commonly understood,
>>>created and arbitrary language (as opposed to instinctual calls).
>>> >
>>
>>Doesn't the fact that animals can dream mean that they have a self? I have
>>less objections to your term 'self-awareness' even though I'm not fond of
>>it either. In any case Irene Maxine Pepperberg's work with parrots
>>demonstrates that these animals are capable of using words if properly
>>trained.
>>
>>Ray Recchia
>
>Making sounds that sound like words and using words are not the same thing.
>When I beat my chest I am not communicating with gorillas. Birds can be
>taught to repeat certain sounds to please their trainers, but I seriously
>doubt they are consciously communicating meaning with their sounds. They
>have just learned that making some sounds will cause people to reward them
>with food or attention. I don't believe they are really "saying" anything.
>
>Grant
>
Yep; it's just another example of the 'Clever Hans" phenomenon.
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a book? Want a deal? No problem AddALL!
http://www.addall.com compares book price at 41 online stores.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sun Jan 20 2002 - 04:44:40 GMT