Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA04910 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 19 Jan 2002 00:25:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.222.132] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:21:24 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F48D1Ty9CMdZpDsiIWe0001f1f4@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jan 2002 00:21:24.0746 (UTC) FILETIME=[3A98AEA0:01C1A07F] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:18:12 -0800
>
>
>
> > "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> memetics@mmu.ac.uk RE: Knowledge,
>Memes and Sensory PerceptionDate: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:09:31 -0500
> >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
> >>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >>To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> >>Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >>Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:46:27 -0500
> >>
> >>I'm not sure, lost in the plethora of replies, who made the statement I
> >>copy
> >>at the end of this email, but I would suggest that equating the deaths
>from
> >>Sept 11 and those from US military action in Afghanistan is a symptom of
> >>the
> >>political and moral problem that the US has created for itself:
> >>
> >>We rightly denounce the terrorist deaths at the WTC and Pentagon as
>those
> >>of
> >>criminal, evil people. But the US actions are those of a government, of
>a
> >>government that claims to be moral and good, and the government of a
>people
> >>and country that wish to be moral and good. To compare one set of deaths
>to
> >>another, based on the numbers of dead, is a disservice to those of us
>who
> >>belief in the morality of the US, for it lowers the actions and motives
>and
> >>moral standard of our government to those of the terrorists.
> >>
> >>It is one thing to criticize the political and legal elements of US
> >>government actions (as I do) and another thing to imply that the moral
> >>standards of terrorists are good enough for us.
> >>
> >>Statements like the one below give comfort to those who assert that we
>are
> >>no better than the terrorists. Talk about toxic memes!
> >>
> >>Lawrence
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > <You need to reference your opinion with facts. as of now, the
> >> > death toll from the WTC atrocity is 2939; no credible source dares
>claim
> >> > that an equal or greater number of Afghan noncombatants have died
> >> > in the US
> >> > reponse against the Taliban and Al Quaeda there.>
> >> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Gee Lawrence, when you actually go back and dig out the chopped context
>of
> >the above reponse you might realize why it was made. The above response
> >(starting with "You need to reference your opinion with facts." and
>ending
> >with "...Taliban and al Quaeda there.") was in *reply* to somebody
>saying:
> >
> >(bq) "If the US does not believe that its might is evidence of its
>goodness,
> >how does it justify its aggression and the collateral damage (way in exes
> >(sic) of 9/11) caused thereby. How many innocent lives does vengeance
>(tho
> >your God claims that right) demand" (eq)
> >
> >This is the snippet which the person's statement you put at the end of
>your
> >e-mail was in response to. Doesn't look like the "toxic meme" statement
> >started the comparison, He was just asking for referencing of opinion
>with
> >facts.
> >
> >So Lawrence if you can see us *hoi polloi* from the high horse, how would
> >you have alternatively responded to 9/11 and how would you defuse such
> >situations so they don't arise again? Be be detailed and specific. Maybe
> >Vincent can play the Tony Blair antipode to your Dubya antipode.
> >
>let us remember that collateral means accidental or inadvertant, and to
>equate the INTENTIONAL murder of almost 3000 human beings doing nothing
>more than quietly pursuing their lives, among other doing the same, with
>the ACCIDENTAL deaths of civilians who happened to be close to targeted
>mass religious murderers (or those planning and training to be so) and who
>in most cases KNEW who those people were and what they were about (and if
>you doubt that, check the news reports about all the pilgrimmages to the Al
>Quaeda graveyards in Kandahar), is either mentally ill or morally blind.
>
Besides accidental deaths of non-combatants another unfortunate consequence
of war is death by friendly fire, likewise accidental and tragic.
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