Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA01845 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 18 Jan 2002 07:20:44 GMT To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Message-Id: <AA-F507F826E0E0342672B5A5C0F16843D0-ZZ@maillink1.prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 02:16:49 -0500 From: "Philip Jonkers" <PHILIPJONKERS@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: Modes of Transmission Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>It looks like you are listing media of communication,
at least with regard to
>the transmission of ideas.
>
>
>Some very basic questions are:
>
>1. WHAT is the replicator or WHAT are the replicators
>
>2. HOW does the replicator (or replicators) replicate
>
>3. WHY do some replicators replicate more than others
do.
>
>Questions 1 and 2 seem to be getting mixed together
in recent threads, though
>I have not read everything.
>
>In answering question 1, there seem to be three very
broad classes under
>consideration:
>
> A. Internal phenomena that might be called ideas
and/or memories and/or
>internal behaviors,
I guess this class includes, what is referred to as
`meaning', on the list.
> B. External behaviors, typically visible,
audible, tangible, etc. with
>the unaided senses
>
> C. Artifacts.
>
>All of A, B, and C are identified by way of
abstractions, as discussed in
>this excerpt from my paper Units, Events, and
Dynamics in the Evolutionary
>Epidemiology of ideas
(http://www.thoughtcontagion.com/UED.htm):
It looks like you're in the memes-are-everywhere
camp too. Cool... I expected no different though.
>BEGIN QUOTE
>" Many of the conceptual and analytical tools used to
consider thought
>contagions also pertain to the various other kinds of
cultural replicators,
>though often with modification. Still, the
similarities allow for scientists
>to study a range of different kinds of cultural
replicators. As with memory
>items, one still needs abstractions to consider two
behaviors or two
>artifacts "the same." That means that one still needs
to use abstractions to
>view behaviors or artifacts as replicators. For
example, it takes an
>abstraction to say that two people both
performed "the same" behavior of
>tying a shoe. One does not mean that hands followed
the exact same
>trajectories over time, since no two people's hands
are exactly identical.
>Some hands have fewer than five digits, others have
extra digits, while still
>others have arthritic joints. Even for a single
individual, the trajectories
>followed in tying a shoe can vary dramatically, while
the physiological state
>of the hands and body also change from moment to
moment and year to year.
>What one calls "the behavior" of tying a shoe is
recognized more for the
>outcome of a secure bow made by one person than the
specific behavior leading
>to that result. People also learn different ways of
tying a shoe:
>single-handedly or left-handedly, while others learn
to tie bows that have
>slight topological differences such as a clockwise or
counterclockwise twist.
>Compounding the diversity is the huge variety of
shoes and shoe laces. A very
>young child needs a certain amount of experiential
learning just to know that
>a shoe-tying behavior is happening. Cultural
replication can only happen with
>respect to an abstraction, whether it involves
internal memory items or
>external behaviors and artifacts or any combination
of them.
>
>While a behavior such as tying a shoe is not itself a
thought contagion, the
>knowledge of how to tie a shoe with a bow does spread
as a thought contagion.
>The ease of untying a slip knot such as a bow would
have given people
>incentive to learn the knowledge of how to tie a bow
from other people seen
>doing it. As that knowledge spread in adults, parents
had motives for
>inculcating the knowledge into their children: doing
so saved them from
>having to dig terrible knots out of their children's
shoelaces or from
>dealing with shoes falling off of their children or
from always having to
>help the children with their shoes.
>
>When artifacts are viewed as replicators, most
involve brains at some point
>in the causal pathway to forming new "copies." Bows
tied in shoelaces do not
>replicate themselves, and they are usually not even
used for clues about how
>to tie shoelaces. Instead, bows result from behaviors
that result from stored
>knowledge, with the behaviors playing an essential
role in communicating the
>knowledge from brain to brain. The bow as an artifact
helps call attention to
>the fact that there is a useful bow-tying behavior
and knowledge of how to
>tie a bow. The artifacts of bows, the behavior of
tying bows, and the
>knowledge of how to tie a bow all depend upon each
other for propagation.
>They all depend on the persistence of memory for
preservation, as the bows
>and the behaviors of tying them usually remain
dormant while people sleep
>with their shoes off and untied. " END QUOTE
Nice and clear quote, I like it...
>In regard to ideas as replicators, the general
question 2 of how the
>replicators replicate includes both the media of
communication and other
>behavioral specifics. Under media of communication,
you do indeed have such
>things as showing, saying, writing, and picturing.
With respect to idea
>transmission, artifacts and behaviors can be media of
communication. Along
>with showing, saying, writing, and picturing, one
might add signing (as in
>sign language), and even some exotic, futuristic
methods involving
>micro-neurosurgery. If we could learn from osmosis, I
would add that one too
>:-)
>
>--Aaron Lynch
What is the difference between showing and picturing?
I can't picture that... Well, we can already
learn from osmosis since a branch of biology
probably is dedicated to just doing that. Do you mean
to learn mediated by osmosis in a cheating and
lazy kind of way in which you acquire
knowledge without investing the good old blood, sweat
& tears?
Sorry Aaron for being
such a hair splitter, I guess it comes with the
territory (computational science).
Cheers,
Philip.
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