Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA17861 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:17:07 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D1DC@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: playing at suicide Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:34:48 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 2] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi Grant,
We've covered stuff on mirror neurons on the list previously (check the
archives). He is referring to a possible mechanism for empathy, not for
what you're talking about. The point I made still stands because you were
not, at the time of my original response (I'm playing catch up a bit with
all the newbies posting alot, causing us oldies to post lots too),
differentiating language based responses and instinctual ones.
Besides, words in and of themselves aren't memes. Memes require
replication. I'm in the artefactual meme camp BTW.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Grant Callaghan
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 15:46 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: playing at suicide
>
> Hi, Vincent. I think you'll find that in another post I said specifically
>
> that "A scream is not a meme." Even a cry is not a meme until it is used
> for a specific purpose. That doesn't happen immediately upon removal from
>
> the womb. But babies do start attempting to manipulate their environment
> very early in life. That's when random behavior becomes encoded as memes.
>
> There is an article by V.S Ramachandran in Edge emagazine that discusses
> the
> way memes are encoded in the brain. He has some pretty good research to
> back it up.
>
> Here is the first paragraph of his article:
> u
>
> "MIRROR NEURONS and imitation learning as the driving force behind "the
> great leap forward" in human evolution
>
> By V.S. Ramachandran
>
> The discovery of mirror neurons in the frontal lobes of monkeys, and their
>
> potential relevance to human brain evolution - which I speculate on in
> this
> essay - is the single most important "unreported" (or at least,
> unpublicized) story of the decade. I predict that mirror neurons will do
> for
> psychology what DNA did for biology: they will provide a unifying
> framework
> and help explain a host of mental abilities that have hitherto remained
> mysterious and inaccessible to experiments."
>
> Grant
> >
> >Hi Grant,
> >
> >Show me a substantive difference in pronunciation of 'scream' amongst 3
> >month old babies around the world and you've got a point. Similarly,
> show
> >me a mother who instinctively knows whether the baby needs changing,
> >holding
> >or feeding from the sound of the scream alone and you've got a point.
> >
> >A baby's scream (as an adult's scream, if say they are scalded, or
> >surprised) is a simple stimulus-response action, as straighforward as
> >blinking.
> >
> >Vincent
> >
> >
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Grant Callaghan
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 2:57 AM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: playing at suicide
> > >
> > > >
> > > >On Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:38 , Grant Callaghan wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>If the baby didn't know it had the need, it wouldn't be able to
> > > >>express it.
> > > >
> > > >Interesting take on instinctual responses. It certainly is able
> > > >to 'express' pain with a scream, as you are.
> > > >
> > > >But, what do you know?
> > > >
> > > >And, what do you need that you screamed?
> > > >
> > > >I see a real difference between someone wanting, say, a new
> > > >iMac, and a baby crying because its hungry.
> > > >
> > > >>She knows because the baby communicated the want or need to her.
> > > >
> > > >Is this response, crying, really a communication?
> > > >
> > > >- Wade
> > > >
> > > If you think a cry of pain is not a meme of communication, consider
> this
> > > --
> > > in America we say "ouch" or "ow" when we feel pain. In Japan, they
> say
> > > "itai!" or "itai-o!" In China, they say "ai-o" and in the Philippines
>
> >the
> > >
> > > say "apo!" or "apo-da!" In other words, in each culture they found a
> > > different way to express pain. You'd think an instinctual response
> >would
> > > elicit a more uniform way of expressing itself.
> > >
> > > Grant
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> > >
> > >
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> >===============================================================
> >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>
>
>
>
> Grant
>
> The means you use shape the ends you get.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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