Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA14764 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:28:12 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:00:54 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAKEEJCJAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <JJEIIFOCALCJKOFDFAHBEEPDEBAA.richard@brodietech.com> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Couldn't agree with you more, re. wariness towards mind viruses seeking
world domination.
Of course, just about every country harbors someone's terrorist. Chile
harbors Pinochet, according to some. The US harbors Cuban terrorists,
according to some. Israel harbors a killer from Maryland, according to the
DA here, and the terrorists who carried out the Dome of the Rock massacre.
Pakistan harbors the ISI. France harbored a US citizen who killed his wife,
if I remember correctly, as well as French paras like Paul Aussaresses who
carried out anti-Algerian terrorism in the 1940 and 50s. And so it goes.
I just bought Bloom's book as per your recommednation. I saw a piece he
wrote earlier that was very anti-Arab/Muslim and pro-Israeli. I hope the
Lucifer Principle is about more than that! And I hope he doesn't think an
American-Muslim war would be in Israel's interest, though I do know some
Israelis who do. It certainly wouldn't be in ours, or that of the
Arab/Muslim world.
Lawrence
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Richard Brodie
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 8:35 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>
>
> Bush (wisely) didn't want to declare war on the entire Islam
> world, just the
> regimes that were harboring terrorism. Many of these groups have developed
> puppet governments that claim to be shocked, shocked by the terrorist acts
> while secretly being part of the good ol' gang. I am not convinced, as
> Howard Bloom fears, that we are heading for an inevitable war with the
> entire Islam religion. But I sure hope our leaders are preparing for the
> possibility.
>
> No, I'm not anti-Islam, or anti-Christian for that matter. But I have a
> great wariness towards virulent cultural organisms (mind viruses)
> that have
> world domination as an integral goal. Even America!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Lawrence DeBivort
> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:09 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
>
>
> Why do you think even Bush felt compelled to do so? It is because
> Christians
> in this country were attacking Muslims so ferociously (e.g.
> diapers and fan
> belts) that ven Bush -- driven as he is by his own brand of Christian
> fundamentalism, thought it unfair (I hope) and politically
> unwise. But now
> that you have jumped to Bush, you will also have to recognize that Muslim
> leaders, such as Mubarrak, Fahd, Musharref, etc. are not teaching Muslim
> children to hate Americans.
>
> But the disengenious aspect of Bush's 'war on terrorism' is that in its
> non-specificity lies mischief, as it allows any bigot in the US to insert
> his own 'evil one' of choice into the picture. I don't think
> Bush did this
> deliberately: I think he knew who he was talking about; it is in
> his choice
> of language that the mischief lies.
>
> Richard, is it not possible that you yourself are infected with the
> anti-Muslim virus? Your earlier emails re. Sept 11 seemed quite so, to me.
>
> In friendship,
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Richard Brodie
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:21 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >
> >
> > I think that's way off base. Bush and other have bent over
> > backwards to say
> > we are fighting terrorists, not Islam. In any case your
> examples are a far
> > cry from the intensive anti-Western brainwashing given to some Muslim
> > children in their schools.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:28 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> >
> >
> > Take the instances I listed below. Each of them implies that Christians
> > (Americans) have the right to act the way they have in these
> > instances, and
> > have that right because Muslims are to be hated. The attacks by
> the US on
> > Arab and Muslims countries, listed below, were carried out outside
> > international and US law. At least two instances (Tripoli and
> Sudan) were
> > found subsequently to be without justification. Muslims are
> inferior, goes
> > the implicit and at times explicit argument, and so it is
> > acceptable to hate
> > them.
> >
> > To put the point more specifically, a US Congressman (from Louisiana, I
> > believe?) called Arabs/Muslims a people who wear diapers and
> fan belts on
> > their heads. Islam is routinely accused of oppressing women
> > (though most who
> > do so are confusing the Taliban with Islam). And all too many US
> > commentators gleefully describe the inferiorities of Islam
> while ignoring
> > its accomplishments. I attended a local church service, and the pastor
> > picked up on this refrain, and said that any society that
> > harbored within it
> > those who could carry out Sept. 11 was itself evil (an echo of
> > Bush's 'those
> > who harbor terrorist' argument). Even Thomas Friedman, who used
> to have a
> > semi-balanced view of the Middle East, has fallen in with the
> anti-Muslim
> > views of post-Sept. 11.
> >
> > All this, unchallenged by any significant body of American
> > political, legal
> > or moral leaders, conveys to the American people (children or
> adults) that
> > Muslims are not worthy of fair or legal treatment. Sept 11 proved
> > a bonanza
> > for those who hate, whether they are Muslims who hate America, or
> > Americans
> > who hate Muslims. All too many educated Americans fell for it,
> as have, I
> > would guess, all too many educated Muslims.
> >
> > Lawrence
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > Of Richard Brodie
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:38 PM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> > >
> > >
> > > No, that wasn't what I was asking. I was asking where Christian
> > > children are
> > > being taught to hate Muslims.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 8:54 AM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please remember we are asking how Muslim children might get the
> > > 'meme' that
> > > Christians are out to kill them, in parallel with Chriustian
> > kids getting
> > > the 'meme' that Muslims are out to kill them...
> > >
> > > What Christians have done to Muslims recently that might
> spread the meme
> > > that Christians are out to kill Muslims:
> > >
> > > - Somalia
> > > - Attack on civilian sections of Tripoli
> > > - US bombings of Iraq post-Kuwait
> > > - Sudan -- Clinton's cruise missiles
> > > - Afghanistan - ditto
> > >
> > > Each of these US actions -- entirely justified in US gov't eyes
> > -- killed
> > > and harmed Muslim civilians.
> > >
> > > And then we have the highly publicised:
> > >
> > > - Bush's 'the evil ones' used without specification
> > >
> > > - Bush's 'crusade' - later retracted by Bush if not by those
> who planted
> > > this ill-conceived language in his mind), but only after the
> > > 'crusade' meme
> > > had spread
> > >
> > > - Afghanistan 'collateral damage' -- this meme, launched by
> the DoD and
> > > Bush, has been well-exploited to suggest a callous disrgard to
> > > the death and
> > > maiming of innocents.
> > >
> > > I won't even go into the two-centuries of colonialism by the
> > > Christian West
> > > (often and more recently with US participation) that preceded
> > all of this.
> > > But will, if you inquire ;-D
> > >
> > > Some will want to argue with us about how some or all of these
> > actions are
> > > 'justified' but this is not of great interest here: we are
> > > talking about the
> > > acts, perceptions and language what create and spread memes.
> > >
> > > Lawrence
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I don't see the parallel. Where is that happening?
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> > [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > > Of Lawrence DeBivort
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 7:11 AM
> > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In the same way, I suppose, that Muslim parents have to worry about
> > > > Christian kids being taught that it is alright to kill Muslims.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > <<It's not the memes you have to worry about, it's the
> > people who use
> > > > > them.>>
> > > > >
> > > > > So we don't have to worry about Muslim children being
> > taught that the
> > > > > highest goal in life is to kill themselves in an attack on
> > Americans?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ===============================================================
> > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> > Transmission
> > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> unsubscribing)
> > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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