Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA13498 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:11:30 GMT From: "Hans-Cees Speel" <hanscees@hanscees.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:11:11 +0100 Subject: test Message-ID: <3C1508CF.29076.AD9580F@localhost> In-reply-to: <000b01c1818e$b6650f20$549ebed4@default> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
> Hi Salice, Ray,
> > >Furtheron, i feel kind of annoyed by people using memetics theory
> > >for expressing their personal tastes and giving pseudo-evidence to
> > >prove that their taste is universal true for everyone. Where's the
> > >science in there?
>
> > I agree.
> >
> > I think it is a real problem that we need to look at. As another
> > example
> I
> > really liked the historical background given in Agner Fog's book
> > 'Cultural Selection' (much of which can be found online at
> > www.agner.org/cultset/) but I think his cultural r/K theory is way
> > too oversimplified and full of subjective classifications. I think
> > there should be a broader discussion of this. If this field is ever
> > to be taken seriously we need to be
> careful
> > not to overreach, and I am not certain what we can do to keep the
> > reins
> in.
>
> << I agree with both of you, expressing your feelings that memetics is
> misused to get personal gain, some points do need clarification, but I
> don 't see to which extend the two writers of this piece would gain so
> much being one a member of a division of mathematics and the other is
> deep in psychology I suppose. But that is all beside the point.
>
> The point is that both look at architectue from a memetic point of
> view, and IMO that is a good start. Where you think they are all for
> modernism, it seems to me that just the opposite is true. And
> moreover, in the para- graph beginning with ' different styles
> competed with each other....( just before part 7) they express IMO a
> very important issue indeed. The fact that in architecture the lowest
> of the information treshold is the one that gets propagated is
> meaningful for memetics. What makes memes propagate in the first place
> !? Undo any meme of its rich information content and you get the '
> meme- core ', in a broader sense the memetype.
>
> In other words, quantity becomes quality, but this sounds paradoxal,
> but it is not, the more you get rid of additional info the better a
> meme will propagate itself, simplicity is the norm. Also, their new
> (8) factor seems to have a workable angle, encapsulation got indeed a
> nasty ring to it, but remerber the discussion about G- memes,
> artefacts ( Question to Wade) and the definition of imitation.
>
> There too you found encapsulation. The beauty of a statue is within
> that piece of art, we drag it out, it makes itself more attractive to
> us manipu- lating our emotions in order to propagate. The beauty is
> than protected by the whole of the gesture, the material of which it
> is made, form, pose, inside a complex of other memes the beauty is
> insulated from other more hostile memes. On an individual bias, most
> likely.
>
> You apply to them as not being original, to misuse memetics, but in
> doing that you are doing exactly the same thing of which you wanna
> fight. You start from out your ' scientific ' approach, which is due
> to certain rules and obligations, and I understand that, but ordering
> people to do just that, is exactly the same what you reproach them,
> you are willing to protect your ' political ' bias where upon memetics
> is placed. But, IMO, and that counts still for everything, you need
> the dichotomy in any debate.
>
> My opinion is, try to see this the other way round, try to see this as
> were the title, "A memetic theory to express their discomfort with
> Modernism", and you get a whole other ballgame. They made a few, but
> important mistakes, but if this can contribute to a better
> understanding of to ' how ' memetics/ memes work, I am all for for
> such kind of tokens. That is to say, that is why this list is for, to
> discuss the ramifications for human culture as a whole.
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
Theories come and go, the frog stays [F. Jacob]
-------------------------------------------------------
Hans-Cees Speel http://www.hanscees.com
pgp public key at http://www.hanscees.com/hcs.asc
Editor "Journal of Memetics Evolutionary Models of Information
Transmission"
http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
submit papers to the new managing editors at
w.m.dejong@tbm.tudelft.nl or mikeb@media.mit.edu
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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