Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA01687 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:37:36 GMT Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:32:38 -0800 Message-Id: <200112040732.fB47WcE24167@mail5.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [216.76.255.22] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: circular logic Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Re: circular logicDate: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:29:20 +0100
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>
>>The thing is, according to Devillers and Chaline, that not only the neck,
>>but
>>also the frontlegs of the animals were getting longer. The result of both
>>processes, forced upon them by the environment, is that the giraffe,
>without
>>standing up on its backlegs can now reach a hight of six meters ( 20 feet).
>>All is due to habits. And the habit, more likely the need, of reaching for
>>the
>>highest leaves resulted in changes.
>>
>Nope. Shorter giraffes starved to death, taller ones (however 'taller' was
>manifested, by neck or legs or both) survived to reproduce, giving us a new
>spectrum of heights in succeeding generations; the shorter ones of these
>generations starved to death, too, and the median giraffe height rose as a
>consequence of this blind purposeless natural environmental selection of
>certain mutations over others, or of one end of that species'
>body-configuration spectrum over the other, in continuous iteration.
>
>Hi Joe,
>
>Can 't agree !
>There were way back that time no shorter giraffes !
>The giraffes were the adaption ! There were only bigger animals which could
>reach the top leaves of the trees easily. Environmental changes forced some
>of them to reach for still more higher leaves, maybe the leaves of a tree
>where
>they did not feed on usualy.
>
>According to Dawkins, the shorter necks did not die out. The giraffe as we
>know it today had an ancestor more likely something like the okapi.
>This could be a classic example of cultural transmission via imitation.
>The little ones of those animals who reached for the highest leaves did so
>too. The other ones stayed behind and evolved into the okapi of today.
>Cultural transmission can last for a very long time, maybe this one has been
>picked up by the natural selection criteria.
>
>IMO, 2 possibilities,
>1_ the ancester of the okapi and the giraffe was a bigger animal overall,
>but
>with a shorter neck. In that case they could reach for the leaves on top,
>for still higher leaves, they could stand on their backlegs.
>Out of that one ancestor two species evolved, okapi and giraffe.
>
>2_ the ancestor of the okapi and the giraffe was not that bigger than the
>okapi we know today. In that case the giraffe evolved (A) along lines
>of cultural transmission, variation and selection. Only one new species
>evolved,
>the giraffe. The mutual ancestor became the okapi. ( slow evolution)
>(B) According to Dawkins, the change occured in one big mutation leap,
>although he does not believe this himself. ( an evolution jump)
>The difference between the neck of the giraffe and the one of the okapi
>is very slim. The difference is that by the giraffe the vertebrae and
>eveything
>else were pushed out of eachother. This is streching an old existing
>structure,
>not the introduction of a new.
>
>Not one starved to death, taller animals reached for the higher leaves,
>the smaller animals were happy to get the ones halfway. Everybody
>reproduced, but where there was once one species, two developed.
>The first got six of one, the second got half of the dozen.
>
Your point is well taken, as eohippus could not be considered either a horse or a burro, but was an ancestor of both. My question now is whether it is your interpretation or Ted Dace's or some combination of both that is closest to being correct.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Kenneth
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a book? Want a deal? No problem AddALL!
http://www.addall.com compares book price at 41 online stores.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Dec 04 2001 - 07:44:32 GMT