Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA13005 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:30:27 +0100 From: Philip Jonkers <P.A.E.Jonkers@phys.rug.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: rugth1.phys.rug.nl: www-data set sender to jonkers@localhost using -f To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: What/who selects memes? Message-ID: <1002731161.3bc47699a56be@rugth1.phys.rug.nl> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:26:01 +0200 (CEST) References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D068@inchna.stir.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D068@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 128.32.195.17 Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent:
> Sorry to butt in, but here's where you miss Derek's point
> completely. The only demonstrably consistent feature of
> "God is dead", are the words, and the letters they are composed of.
> There is no identified physical structure that you can demonstrate
> exists in my mind and yours that relates to this.
> That we both use our brains to process that phrase is
> certain, but when we're talking about memes, we're talking about
> units of replication that should retain their form when being
> transmitted (otherwise they don't replicate). There's no
> evidence for a mechanism in the brain that does that, indeed
> it's been well argued (by Derek in the journal) that
> it is highly unlikely such a mechanism exists. All one is left with
> that can retain its form, and can clearly be transmitted is the
> artifact of the written phrase "God is dead".
I guess I see what you mean Vincent. The meme manifests
itself differently in each person that adopts it.
The example, "God is dead" evokes different images in different
people; also people may interpret the meme differently (depending
on their prior memetic history or intelligence); the implications
it stands for vary among people; the meme might bring back related
memories also individually unique. So the representation of a
meme is rather personal, extremely complex, intricate and therefore varies
hopelessly to high extent among people. This makes identification of the
meme virtually impossible on a neural level.
However, I was wondering whether the artifact: in this case the
written sentence `God is dead' really is the only entity that retains
its form in transmission. When you pronounce the sentence in your head
without actually saying it, isn't that also a robust representation of
the meme. I mean, shouldn't this representation be more or less the same
in each person that imaginatively pronounces it.
Philip.
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