Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA06556 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 7 Oct 2001 15:40:26 +0100 Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 07:35:47 -0700 From: Bill Spight <bspight@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Memes inside brain To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Message-id: <3BC06843.8BAECB64@pacbell.net> Organization: Saybrook Graduate School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Yahoo;YIP052400} (Win95; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <E15peHt-0004T2-00@dryctnath.mmu.ac.uk> <3BBF33E5.31BE65CA@pacbell.net> <20011006181110.B915@ii01.org> <3BBF63CF.DFCB85DB@pacbell.net> <20011007133406.A710@ii01.org> Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Dear Robin,
> I don't have time just now to go looking up refs, but I take it forgranted
> that the claim that memes are transmitted by imitation amounts to this:
> Person A performs and person B observes, at some later point B performs
> and C observes, then C performs and D observes. The meme either "takes"
> or does not at the time of observation (as a simplifying generalisation).
> The complete process, from one performance to the next, is considered to
> be imitation, but only observation (with receptivity) is actually required
> of the recipient to get the meme from one brain to the next.
>
> I'd like to know of any case in which anyone has said "memes are
> transmitted by imitation" and has meant anything other than this.
But, in that view, assuming memes reside in the brain, to say that memes
are imitated is simply to say that they are transmitted. The imitation
is not the *means* of transmission between A and B, B and C, C and D,
etc., but the *result* of transmission. Better to say that memes are
transmitted by observation and learning. This is not just quibbling over
words.
To say that memes are transmitted by imitation means that B imitates A,
and that imitation is then reinforced, so that the meme takes, or B's
behavior is then corrected. I.e., imitation is a form a learning by
practice. Or it may mean that B observes A and learns what A is doing
(although memes are not just behaviors) with the intention of imitation.
That way the original learning is imitative, as opposed to other forms
of learning. Blackmore makes a point of saying that other forms of
learning do not tranmit memes, in her view.
The case I mentioned, where the meme is apparently transmitted with
neither practice nor the intent to imitate, is problematic for that
view.
Best,
Bill
P. S. When I say that memes are not just behaviors, I do not mean
anything profound. Suppose that you meet someone who greets you with,
"So long." Something is wrong. The behavior is right: pronunciation,
intonation, emphasis, emotional tone. But the circumstances are wrong.
If he is not fooling around, he may have a mental problem. The "So Long"
meme is not for greetings, but for partings. Memes include not only
behavior, but the circumstances for that behavior. They have to be
learned, as well.
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