Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA28319 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:38:18 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: What/who selects memes? Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:28:09 -0700 Message-ID: <JJEIIFOCALCJKOFDFAHBCECNDJAA.richard@brodietech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20011003123527.CWAR863.t21mta03-app.talk21.com@t21mtaV-lrs> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I think most agree that cultural replication takes place as a gestalt and
involves brains, mouths, artifacts, and so on. This argument over the
definition of "meme" is an unfortunate one. In writing the first book on
memetics, I chose to use the definition that all previous academic writers
had used with the exception of Dawkins's original one that he later revised.
That definition is a replicator that is based in people's minds (or brains,
if you don't like that word--- I think a brain is hardware and the word
"mind" is more accurate but I don't want to pick that fight).
A good popular book on how minds and artifacts interact in cultural
evolution is Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart's FIGMENTS OF REALITY.
-----Original Message-----
From: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
dgatherer@talk21.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2001 6:28 AM
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: What/who selects memes?
>there is an
>huge amount of real life examples which show that the >brain selects
>memes.
No, I dispute this. There's a huge amount of real life examples that show
that people do a lot of thinking - but that's not the same thing. The
selection of memes is largely due to the environment, just like the
selection of genes.
>Just look a few mails ago, a text on memetics and >terrorism giving
>advises not to spread certain memes.
Yes, but that text advises that certain behaviours should be avoided. It
doesn't give recommnedations on what to think.
>How do you know that raw food is potentially dangerous in >certain
>circumstances?
But Stone Age people _didn't know_, that's the whole point. The ones who
cooked food had longer and more reproductive lives than the ones who
didn't - but they were probably completely oblivious to _why_. In fact,
they probably didn't even realise that such a process was happening.
Cultural evolution happens independently of minds.
>Human society is a collection of brains and communication >between
>them. So culture lives in brains.
No, human society is a collection of people and the artifacts they leave
behind.
>Not the structure is reproducible but the concluding meme >is.
>If you say something which i haven't thought of before and >it
>convinces me my brain structure is surely likely to >change. It won't
>look like yours but the resulting meme is going to be >saved in both
>of these structures in whatever way.
Excatly, the meme isn't in the brain. I'm confused now. you seem to be
arguing that the meme is _not_ in the brain whereas above you were arguing
that it is stored in the brain.
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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