Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA10184 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:18:07 +0100 From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Dawkins View Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:52:12 -0400 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAAEGJCGAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-reply-to: <JJEIIFOCALCJKOFDFAHBOENGDHAA.richard@brodietech.com> Sender: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Richard Brodie
> #3 was already done for the embassy bombings and bore no fruit. The Afghan
> government recognized by the UN is in exile. The Taliban government is a
> sham. These people are not stupid. They have been playing the US like a
> violin for years. We have the support of the UN to take action.
The Taliban government is the closest thing to a government Afgahnistan has:
to ignore them diplomatically does us no good. Without diplomatic relations
we cannot pursue extradition effectively (see my original message for the
necessary sequence in which this has to be done). The UN's support to 'take
action' is non-specific, and of little use to us if the action we take is
dysfunctional.
> I think you're way off in #4. Once the kid shoots of his Uzi in the
> schoolyard it's a little too late to have a nice chat with him
> and find out
> why he thinks he's being unfairly persecuted.
Actually, it is not too late. Yes, of course it would have been better to do
so before the event, but even afterwards it is of great use. Or would you
suggest we shoot first and ask questions later? Why so averse to learning
about those we consider our opponents? Are we afraid of what we might
learn?
Lawrence
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> Lawrence DeBivort
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:33 AM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Dawkins View
>
>
> Alternative # 3
>
> Carry out a criminal investgation and if indeed Bin Laden is found
> responsible (as seems probable) then move to normal international
> extradition process via resident government. In the meantime, learn about
> Islamic international law -- there are openings for reasonable and
> productive discourse on these issues that fall well within Muslim
> international law. If the resident government turns out to be Afghanistan
> (less probable), establish diplomatic relations with Afghani (or whoever)
> government first, and present evidence or connection of suspicions second.
> If extradition fails, consider negotiations with Afghan
> government. Reserve
> right of unilateral intervention, if necessary.
>
> Alternative # 4
>
> Analyze/profile al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, and open dialog with their
> associates, to understand what their grievances are and the US
> role (real or
> perceived) in them. Learn from this: is there a growing
> perception that the
> US is the world's bully -- to what extent is this perception justified. If
> not, learn to do a better job explaining US perception of its
> interests and
> policies to defuse this perception of our being a bully. If there is
> justification, learn how we should modify our perceptions and
> policies so as
> to not be a bully and reassume our position as one of the 'good
> guys' in the
> world.
>
> Of course, doing both 3 and 4 together would be best.
>
> We do need leadership at this time. None of this will satisfy the
> blood lust
> and impatience that infuses so many Americans right now...but
> there are many
> Americans who would see the wisdom of these approaches, especially if the
> president were to lead in these directions. The danger of the
> blind military
> responses that are now being threatened is that they will create even more
> of a problem than we already have, and this is why thoughtful people are
> concerned. The way of blood lust and impatience plays right into the hands
> of those who would like to see the US belittled and weakened. Our seeming
> policies and presidential pronouncements are making Bin Laden
> into a greater
> and more powerful antagonist than even he might have hoped for.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> > Richard Brodie
> > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 12:46 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Dawkins View
> >
> >
> > Lawrence,
> >
> > I'm listening. Shoot.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-bounces@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> > Lawrence DeBivort
> > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:56 AM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Dawkins View
> >
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > > I haven't heard anyone coming out in favor of vicious spirals
> of endless
> > > violent retaliation. What do you want to do, leave them alone
> > to take over
> > > the whole Middle East and build a nuclear arsenal?
> >
> > Richard, surely you can think of third and forth alternatives
> to 'leaving
> > them alone' or a military attack on Afghanistan, no?
> >
> > Lawrence
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
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> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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