Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA05895 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:22:52 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745FF9@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Teleology etc. Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:53:23 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 1] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Ooh Joe, that's wicked! :-)
Vincent
> ----------
> From: joedees@bellsouth.net
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 10:16 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Teleology etc.
>
> On 10 Aug 2001, at 18:57, Chris Taylor wrote:
>
> > Sorry you're getting such a kicking Ted - I have to say I admire your
> > staying power!
> >
> > Two points to start:
> > 1) You just can't cite Kant as an authority on molecular biology. 2)
> > Protein folding is rather complex - many chaperones help out,
> > different cellular compartments are involved, as are timing effects to
> > allow local folding. You need a concept of an energy landscape, which
> > is 'out there' in a sense(...), but you most emphatically do not need
> > mystery fields of force.
> >
> > TD:
> > > To my knowledge Wilson has never responded to Sheldrake's thesis
> > > that termite mounds are governed by morphic fields, with the
> > > termites occupying a similar role to cells within animal bodies.
> > > Wilson has never responded to this suggestion because he has no
> > > alternative. It's just up in the air. He doesn't like the field
> > > explanation, but he can't offer anything better.
> >
> > JD:
> > > I'm sure that there is a similar
> > > rule or small group of rules, probably connected with pheromonic
> > > chemical marking, that will suffice to explain termite mound
> > > construction.
> >
> > I've seen simulated paper wasps build complex nests despite
> > individuals only having small simple locally applicable rule sets
> > (consisting of simple input=output pairs). Termites would be easy
> > enough too. Wilson didn't have decent computers and complexity theory
> > to help him.
> >
> > And btw where did the *first* termite mound come from (and the first
> > protein structures too)?
> >
> > TD:
> > > Sheldrake gets around both of these problems.
> >
> > No he doesn't - he tells us a story without evidence. He's his own
> > worst enemy as far as science is concerned, but then I suspect we're
> > not his target demographic.
> >
> > > Memes not a product of genes, so must be from MR etc. etc.
> >
> > Uh-uh - the whole point of this group is the study of culturally
> > heritable patterns - heritable as in copyable. No need for any
> > ethereal templates. And again, where do the first ones come from?
> > Evolution by natural selection operating on variation explains this
> > diversification for me, what does MR have to say about it (genuine
> > question)?
> >
> > > Has anybody spoke to the infamous 100th monkey phenomenon yet?
> >
> > Pah-leeze put me out of my misery...
> >
> The hundredth monkey syndrome will probably be the next
> thing Ted attributes to morphogenetic fields (along with the
> disappearance of Amelia Earhardt and the kidnapping of the
> Lindbergh baby...;~).
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
> > http://bioinf.man.ac.uk/ »people»chris
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
>
> ==============================================================This was
> distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
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