Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA14864 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:21:41 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:25:41 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Logic Message-ID: <3B740B05.26109.1438052@localhost> In-reply-to: <003d01c121d9$994f1080$0502bed4@default> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 10 Aug 2001, at 21:19, Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> You wrote,
>
> > Ted has mentioned both configurations (such as fish scale colors)
> > and actions (such as the opening of milk bottles by birds) as
> > possible examples of morphogenetic resonance. I consider the first
> > to be genetically determined and the second to be learned behavior,
> > but in no way can I conceive of such disparate examples as issuing
> > from a common cause.
>
> << Ok, I can agree on the first, but with the example of the birds,
> you gonna ran into serious trouble if the notions which Dace provided
> us are true. I know of that specific example, and if indeed birds took
> up the habit after four years, and all the previous birds were long
> dead, how do you explain than that the new generation got hold of such
> a habit !? There weren't any birds left from where young ones could
> possibly learn how to open milk bottles !
>
I think that they have a life span exceeding four years.
>
> Do you propose the possibility that somewhere in old England birds
> kept the habit somehow alive, and when the war was over flew over the
> Channel to instruct their friends, relatives and family in Holland how
> to open the bottles !? Or do you propose that somehow the habit was
> passed down to the offspring !? That would be my day, Joe, that you
> were insinuating that birds got hold of a mechanic by which they can
> transfer learned behavior down to the offspring after such a long
> period of time !!
>
A Lamarckian I'm not.
>
> Possibly you think about the possibility that parents instructed,
> learned their children by seeing milkbottles, again, how to open them
> after the war !? That there is no Lamarckian mechanism involved here,
> just a few birds with a very good memory !? I think that is the way
> you see this !? I could agree on that,
>
I definitely think that it is a behavior passed on by imitation; baby
bird see mommy/daddy bird do it, baby bird do it, too. Likewise
with birds of a feather flocking together; observation inspires action.
The sight of the milk bottle could trigger recognition memory, which
lasts longer than recall memory.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are) flying away
>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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