Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA08056 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:55:44 +0100 From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Logic Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:58:29 -0400 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAKEAACFAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <004101c112f3$09e15600$44c2fac1@necdirect> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Salut, Pascal
I like your identification of 'logic' as a memetic entity.
In our work with memes, we use the concept of 'meta-memes', memes that are
specifically about memes and beliefs. "Faith", "Logic", "Authority",
"Experience" are among these meta-memes. They address beliefs we hold about
how to what what is 'true' or 'right' and what is not. Meta-memes are
subject to the same memetic dynamics as memes: they are subject to
counter-(meta)memes, and forms of cognitive attack or modification.
Can you say more about why logic is a memeplex, rather that a meme (or
meta-meme)? What is your distinction between a meme and a memeplex? (We use
the memeplex term to refer to a group of memes that both augment each
other's potency and are substantively interrelated.)
Laurent de Bivort
The Memetic Group
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Pascal Jouxtel
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 5:13 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Logic
>
>
> Bonsoir, TJ and Philip
>
> Same answer for me.
> Logic is one of those memeplexes so powerful that they have become
> absolutely dominant; dominant to such an extent that the very stuff of our
> thoughts relies on it, and that we don't even see them anymore.
>
> I suppose the same could be said of other memeplexes like the
> Self, and also
> like another one almost invisible, which I should call 'the existence and
> unicity of reality'. We all agree on that. Suppose we didn't... in
> situations where we do not think or act according to the 'existence and
> unicity of reality', other memes get quite difficult to pass on, because
> communication itself between two people becomes awkward. It also, like
> philip said, gets difficult to come to satisfactory solutions. Imagine you
> want to shake hands with someone and share a cup of coffee, and you don't
> agree about both of you being in the same place, or being of the same
> species, or even being simutlaneously at all. If you don't agree
> about hands
> being hands, and coffee being coffee.
> These basic dominant memeplexes can come in handy in the morning !
>
> About logic, I would add that the 'logic' meme has mostly been enforced by
> cartesian western civilisation, but it is not absolutely world-wide. I was
> listening to the radio today, and a guy was reporting precisely about
> non-logical things he had witnessed in Africa, South America and Asia. For
> example, he told about a village in Africa where people had suffered from
> sickness, deaths, cattle diseases, famine, and so forth. They had come to
> the conclusion that someone in the village had used black magic to curse
> them. But nobody would dare to inquire or turn his neighbor in,
> for fear of
> retaliations. So they asked the 'feticheur'. He had all villagers
> gather in
> a big circle, and with his machette, he cut a chicken's head. The chicken
> managed to walk a few metres without it's head, and fell dead at
> the feet of
> an old man. The feticheur did it one more time, and the second beheaded
> chicken picked the same man again. He screamed and confessed : He had done
> the deed. All trouble in the village stopped. This is not logic. But it
> worked for those people, so the meme passed on that european
> logic should be
> resisted because it does not help solve problems.
>
> A bientot, les amis !
> Pascal
>
> A bientot sur / see you soon on
> www.contagions.com
> Tell your friends / parlez-en à vos amis
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Jonkers" <P.A.E.Jonkers@phys.rug.nl>
> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 6:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Logic
>
>
> > Hi TJ,
> >
> >
> > Is logic a meme?
> >
> >
> > Logic offers reasonable answers to rational questions. It is
> > a reflection of how the physical world works. Nature ultimately
> > works according to the laws of logic, if it didn't there would be
> > no such place as our universe in the first place. Anyway, to solve a
> technical
> > or physical problem requires logic to arrive at a satisfactory
> > working solution. Having a solution based not on logic will have to
> > rely on luck or brute-force operant conditioning (trial-and-error).
> > In general, if the problem solver uses logic he will come to a higher
> > quality solution in less time and with less expenditure of resources.
> >
> > Therefore, the logical approach to any problem will be preferred
> > over other - less logical and more irrational - angles.
> > People will gain competitive edges by developing an affinity
> > for emphasizing logic in their problem solving approach. In the past,
> > there ought to have been a true genetic interest in developing,
> > either via creation or imitation, logical behavior. This means a memetic
> > drive towards thinking more-and-more logical, analogous to the
> > memetic driving leading to the big human brain as Susan Blackmore
> > argues in `The Meme-Machine'.
> > It therefore seems only logical (!) to infer that, YES, logic is
> > synonymous to an extremely powerful memeplex. This niche is supported
> > by the existence of the whole realm of rational-thought disciplines
> > built on logic. Mathematics, science and technology are examples of
> > extremely successful memeplexes which would not have come to existence
> without
> > logic.
> >
> > Indeed, I owe it to logic that I'm capable of coming to the conclusion
> > that, indeed, logic is a memeplex, and a very successful one at that.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Philip Jonkers.
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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