Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id DAA15537 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:27:05 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:29:57 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Guardian on Information Message-ID: <3B365BD5.14056.219B1D@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010624141013.A970@ii01.org> References: <20010622201057.AAA4142@camailp.harvard.edu@[128.103.125.215]>; from wade_smith@harvard.edu on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 04:10:45PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 24 Jun 2001, at 14:10, Robin Faichney wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 04:10:45PM -0400, Wade T.Smith wrote:
> > On 06/22/01 15:48, Robin Faichney said this-
> >
> > >Think "structure". Information theory in physics is the treatment
> > >of structure as an element in itself.
> >
> > Structure is _still_ a product of _process_.
> >
> > The shape of a termite mound, a snowflake- the only 'information' or
> > 'structure' required is the determinants of the process.
>
> I think you meant "determinands". But see below.
>
> > Time and material were required to arrive at this process, but the
> > only information there or anywhere else is the invention of an
> > observing entity, namely us.
> >
> > Perhaps it's semantics.
>
> Of course it's semantics. Because communications theory a la Shannon
> and thermodynamics have some abstract concepts and math in common, it
> was found convenient to use the term "information" in thermodynamics.
> Disputes about what information "really" is are meaningless. All it
> "really" is, is a word.
>
> > But even asking 'structure' to be required seems
> > erroneous to me.
>
> Process determines high level structure, but the process is
> simultaneously determined by low level structure.
>
> I don't yet fully understand it myself -- nobody does. But I'm
> betting that Dan Dennett, Murray Gell-Mann and David Hull, along with
> countless physicists, eventually turn out to be on the "right" side.
> (I.e. a practically universal consensus is reached that treating
> physical structure as information is more useful than not.)
>
Memes, and information, necessarily involve significance, meaning,
and semantics. Otherwise, memetic hooks and filters could not
exist, for they are semantically based and directed.
> --
> Robin Faichney
> Inside Information -- http://www.ii01.org -- "a prime source of
> meta-memes"
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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