Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA01585 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 15 May 2001 21:33:42 +0100 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:28:08 +0100 From: "Ryan, Angela" <ARyan@french.ucc.ie> Subject: RE: Information To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Message-id: <49AB9D0C6521D84ABD017BF83CDF44C408D77A@xch1.ucc.ie> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
May I throw in Bourdieu's idea:
"Dès qu'on traite le langage comme un objet autonome, [...] on se condamne à
chercher le pouvoir des mots dans les mots, c'est-à-dire là où il n'est pas:
[...]. Ce n'est que par exception [...] que les échanges symboliques se
réduisent à des rapports de pure communication et que le contenu informatif
du message épuise le contenu de la communication. Le pouvoir des paroles
n'est autre chose que le pouvoir délégué du porte-parole: et ses paroles
[...] sont tout au plus un témoignage ... de la garantie de délégation dont
il est investi. [...] l'autorité advient au langage du dehors...
[Pierre Bourdieu, Ce Que Parler veut dire, p 103-5]
I shan't insult you by translating! I find my students find Bourdieu less
clear in translation to English, than in the French, perhaps that is
generally true. His idea is that language and power are intimately and
inevitably connected. I would add that we know what we mean, once we have
said it: and further, that statements like:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that
amongst these rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness [...]
that governments are instituted among men, which derive their just power
from the consent of the governed..."
are true, but not so; they become true when enunciated (who would contradict
the above?) and are enabled to become so once said. As for Bourdieu's
discours d'autorité, the solution he advances to our incredible, and
dangerous, tendency to believe 'authoritative" discourse, is to generate
what he calls discours hérétique, which will act upon the real by acting
upon representations of the real.
Oh well, back to marking essays, from which this list is an interesting
distraction. (Except for the spectator-sport metalanguage, because the
brain-speed reduction needed to read it crashes the system - it's a woman
thing.)
Yours sincerely,
Angela
-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent Campbell [mailto:v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:14 PM
To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
Subject: RE: Information
Butting in briefly...
<Your dogmatism is futile. Look up "information theory" and/or
> "communication theory" in any relevant reference work. For students in
> computing, telecoms and physics, this is first year stuff.>
>
Computing, telecoms and physics do not have the monopoly on
information/ communication theory, indeed one could argue their uses are as
peculiar and non-generalisable as the term culture is in chemistry. If you
want to ignore fields like linguistics, semiotics and communication studies,
then fine, but such disciplines clearly have strong ideas about what terms
like information and communication mean, and if you look up such terms
in_their_reference works I think you'll find them rather closer to what
Joe's been arguing. (As I think I've said before, Shannon & Weaver's model,
for example, went out with the ark in Communication Studies).
Perhaps this is at the root of your disagreement- you and Joe are at
cross (disciplinary) purposes?
Vincent
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Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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