Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id DAA20900 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 3 May 2001 03:30:40 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:33:08 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Information Message-ID: <3AF07D14.19744.AF0FD3@localhost> In-reply-to: <3AF0786C.32550.9CDEF8@localhost> References: <3AF0B02C.605EB5F@wehi.edu.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 2 May 2001, at 21:13, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On 3 May 2001, at 11:11, wilkins wrote:
>
> > Robin Faichney wrote:
> > >
> > ....
> > > According to Roy Frieden, the laws of physics are generated by the
> > > attempt to minimize the difference between an entity or system's
> > > own, physical information, and the information that physicists can
> > > obtain about it. This account does not get awfully technical, at
> > > least as regards physics---we've just gone as deep into Frieden's
> > > work as we're going to go---but this distinction he draws is
> > > vital: between physical information, which exists for its own
> > > sake, and the more usual sort, information that's about something.
> > > (From http://www.ii01.org/physics.html)
> >
> > It seems to me there are really only four relevant sense of
> > "information" here:
> >
> > 1. the Fisher Information account of measurement that Frieden
> > proposes
> >
> > 2. The Shannon-Weaver account that makes information of a sequence
> > its (prior) probability of being encountered
> >
> > 3. The Kolmogorov-Chaitin account that makes information the minimal
> > message length of a sequence, or the shortest algorithm that can
> > generate a sequence, whichever version one prefers; and
> >
> > 4. the semiotic or intentional account of the Peircians, Meinongians
> > and other representationalists.
> >
> > So far as memetics is concerned, only the first three are relevant
> > (it matters not a whit is the information being transmitted is true,
> > coherent or in any way of significance to any audience, so long as
> > it spreads through a population).
> >
> > If something is a measurement of some state distinct from the
> > observer, then that information (ie, the error implicit in the
> > measurement) is a physical mapping of what's in the head to what's
> > in the world. However, it fails to be memetic information until it
> > is transmitted, and then senses 2 and 3 come into play, so we can
> > ignore the two extremes: "objective" information in the sense of
> > accuracy of measurement, and "subjective" information in terms of
> > what something means within the head of a semantically or
> > semiotically capable system (ie, some person) and concentrate
> > instead on the dynamics of information transmission and the
> > evolution of the signals so transmitted.
>
I forgot to add that the way we have supposed that we tell that two
memes are different is that they inspire different behavors and/or
possess different meanings, but behavior alone might not be
sufficient to distinguish between memes. Imagine two cults; one
believes that if you dance you will assure yourself of heaven, and
the other believes that if you dance you will assure your fellow
beings of heaven. The actions of both will be indistinguishable until
the speak about what motivates their dancing, selfishness or
altruism, a difference between the meanings motivating the
behavior, not the behavior itself.
> >
> Actually, #4 is VERY important, for it is significance, or meaning,
> that comprises a meme; that is what is propagated. Behaviors and
> discourse, the engines of imitation, MEAN something to those doing or
> saying them. A meme is the selfsame meme regardless of whether it is
> performed, spoken or written; it is not the code or carrier which
> matter (although one kind or another must obtain, which is of no
> consequence), but the content; that is, memetic identity is a matter
> of semantics and pragmatics, not syntactics. > > My $0.02 > -- > John
> Wilkins, Head, Communication Services, The Walter and Eliza Hall >
> Institute of Medical Research, Melbourne, Australia Homo homini aut >
> deus aut lupus - Erasmus of Rotterdam >
> <http://www.users.bigpond.com/thewilkins/darwiniana.html> > >
> =============================================================== > This
> was distributed via the memetics list associated with the > Journal of
> Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission > For
> information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) > see:
> http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit > >
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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