Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA26366 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:26:54 +0100 From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:27:15 -0400 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAAEJGCCAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <F105ip68V8zDv60gxap0001218f@hotmail.com> Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
Of Scott Chase
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 6:49 PM
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science
SNIP
> >
> > For politics, Niccolo Machiavelli scooped "memetic engineers" by several
> > years at least.
>An interesting aside on Machiavelli; there is a feminist analysis of "The
>Prince" interpreting it as a sarcastic piece written for a disliked patron
>with the intent of telling him what to do that would be sure to make him
>unpopular and create more enemies for himself.
>
>One policy prescription from memetics might involve creating a non-cynical
>book of advice, "The Statesman" that could serve as a foundation for a
>politics of "stewardship and responsibility" rather than power and rule.
>Of
>course, the tome would have to be written with potent memes to compete with
>"The Prince." Any takers?
>
>
I started second guessing what I was thinking about Machiavelli after I
posted that above there. Brodie linked the designer mind viruses with
Machiavelli in my mind upon my recent read...has history been unkind to
Machiavelli? His name carries some dark connotations. One could actually use
such craftpersonship for good ends too. It's been a long while since I
seriously delved into Machiavelli so I reserve judgement. I did manage to
secure a copy of Dick Morris's _The *New* Prince_ recently. Morris was
affiliated with Bill Clinton for a while and probably knows a thing or two
about politics. I've got _The Prince_ and _The Discourses_ handy, but dunno
if I can dig too deep with so many things going at one time.
LdB:
Machiavelli lived at a time of extreme political disorder and disintegration
in northern Italy. Scott's speculation about 'good ends' is, I think, on
target. A dozen years ago I did an analysis of Machiavelli's hierarchy of
values and concluded that above all else he valued social order -- equated
to saving lives of citizens. This his advice had to do with how to create
and maintain order. Today, his prescriptions seem overzealous, but it may
simply be that with the increased cohesion and collective ethos of our
culture we simply don't need the political manipulations that Machiavelli
deemed essential to maintain desirable levels of social cohesion.
I am intrigued by the idea of writing a new "The Statesman." If Covey's
simplistic proscriptions can attain the popularity they have, surely
something with more substance and sophistication might find a welcome.
- Lawrence
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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