Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id FAA23670 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 23 Apr 2001 05:24:42 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:27:26 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Levels of explanation (was Re: Determinism) Message-ID: <3AE368DE.18340.BC1D21@localhost> In-reply-to: <20010421101341.B402@ii01.org> References: <3ADF1D2F.11367.443A02@localhost>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 05:15:27PM -0500 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 21 Apr 2001, at 10:13, Robin Faichney wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 05:15:27PM -0500, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > On 19 Apr 2001, at 8:59, Robin Faichney wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 18,
> 2001 at 01:56:21PM -0500, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote: > > > On 18 Apr
> 2001, at 18:15, Robin Faichney wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr > > 18, 2001
> at 08:49:55AM -0400, Wade T.Smith wrote: > > > On 04/18/01 > > 05:52,
> Robin Faichney said this- > > > > > > >"we have to distinguish > > > >
> > >between causation and conceptual framework translation" > > > > > >
> > > OK, I know that's your manifesto at the moment, but, I have to > >
> admit > > > I'm fuzzy on what 'conceptual framework translation' > >
> actually _is_. > > > > > > What is being translated and into what > >
> language? > > > > Genetics, when you get to a certain level of detail,
> > > requires the > > language of chemistry, rather than that of
> biology > > (biochemistry, > > microbiology, whatever -- you get the
> idea). > > Similar translations are > > required whenever we shift
> between levels > > of explanation. It's the > > different concepts
> that apply within > > them that distinguish between > > levels. > > >
> And now, for his next > > act, the amazing linguistic prestidigitator
> (or > is that > > prestianaloguer?) Robin Faichney will fully explain
> self- > conscious > > awareness using nothing more than the elementary
> laws > of physics and > > the Periodic Table of Elements! Let's give
> him a > round of applause, > > ladies and gents! > > > > Chemisty and
> biology are differentiated by the levels of explanation > > with which
> they deal, but both use objective methodology. With > >
> "self-conscious awareness" subjectivity comes into the picture, and >
> > that is irreducible. > > > Just like the emergent self-conscious
> awareness with respect to > the material substrate brain.
>
> I wish you'd give just a moment's thought to what I say. "Emergent
> self-conscious awareness" is not "just like" subjectivity, it IS
> subjectivity. I'm agreeing with you, and you with me!
>
> > It is much easier to observe mutual
> > causation between them than it is to explain the former in the
> > lexicon of the latter; in fact, such explanation is impossible, as
> > you noted, and constitutes what is known as the 'hard problem' of
> > neuroscience; the physiological explanation of the subjective
> > experiential perception of qualia.
>
> I've often thought it remarkable how easy you seem to find it to solve
> the "hard problem" -- just utter the words "emergent materialism" and
> it vanishes in a puff of smoke!
>
That does not solve the hard problem, but it does frame it. In fact,
it is the only cognitive science perspective which has manages to
do so, which is one of the reasons (massive corroborative evidence
is, of course, another) that emergent materialism is and has been
for some time far and away the dominant perspective in
contemporary cognitive science.
> --
> Robin Faichney
> Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org
> (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Apr 23 2001 - 05:27:59 BST