Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA18417 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:36:44 +0100 From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:35:45 -0400 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAGEIBCCAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01C0C9C0.5469D660" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <004401c0c9dd$8d16a200$215c2a42@jrmolloy> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
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Agreed about PBS having its own agenda, and none more important than
pointing out the exploitative nature of other communication channels,
estpecially those motivated by brand promotion primarily.
Can't agree that 'capitalism' is the best available economic system.
Short-term benefits at the cost of long-term ones, lack of accountability
for tertiary damage, consumer abuse and misinformation, executive greed,
market domination and exploitation, labor abuse, etc., are all massive
problems that I associate with capitalism. I believe that people and
societies must continue to search for better systems. And I am certain that
the human species is only beginning to learn how to create healthy and
desirable societies. (How's that for a faith-based assertion? :-) )
- Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
J. R. Molloy
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 5:05 PM
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The Status of Memetics as a Science
Hi Lawrence,
Thanks for your reply.
So you're talking about engineering memes. OK, that clears it up. Others
have referred to this as propaganda. I guess any technology opens avenues
for misuse and abuse, and perhaps one of the areas in which memetics can
benefit humanity is in understanding meme systems which generate abusive
and dangerous behavior. IOW, a constructive use of memetics is the study of
memes which result in harmful behavior.
The concern about the advertising industry is justified, I think. However,
we might also note that PBS has its own (sometimes ulterior) motives when it
comes to selecting programming for broadcast. Advertising which seeks to
sell material products seems no more unhealthy than programming which
intends to promote ideological perspectives, it seems to me. Capitalism is
the worst possible economic system -- except for all the others. (Apologies
to Winston Churchill.)
Best regards,
--J. R.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence DeBivort
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: The Status of Memetics as a Science
JR Molloy posed the question of engineering and memetics earlier today:
By engineering in this context I mean the conscious design and release of
memes for the purpose of achieving a pre-specified outcome. I am concerned
that this capability may be abused ethically. Wade in past conversations has
disagreed that such engineering is possible; we can only hope that lots of
people agree with him and that of these who have nefarious motives take
their efforts elsewhere and into less powerful areas of endeavour.
I watched a fascinating PBS Frontline program last night (April 19 2001)
on the entertainment/advertising industry and their efforts to appear "cool"
and appeal to kids under 25. They are moving close to memetic-level
competence by copying youth trends (rebellion, grunge, outsider dress,
music, language and behavior, etc.) and identifying corporate brands with
it, e.g. Sprite, Nike, Reebok, The program, having shown how the industry
does this, then described a 'counter' effort by teens to promote
anti-commercial trends, whereupon the industry embraced _that_,
successfully. The narrator of the Frontline program speculated at the end
that the advertising/entertainment industry and the kids were in a positive
feedback loop: teen trendsetters influence what the industry embraces; the
rest of teens embraces the fads shown by the industry, reinforcing the
success of the industry, and then the teens start to ape the
commercialization effort of the industry, putting on 'shows' of the trend
when the industry communications (e.g. MTV channels) are watching. The most
hopeful thing the program explained was that the fads and their
commercialization are self-defeating: when a trend has been popularized by
the commercializers it becomes 'uncool' and the commercializers have to move
to new fads. Perhaps the 'Columbine' kids ought to be going after industry
execs...
The program also showed an interesting difference between genders: girls
are seeking a conformist approval (via 'midriff' beauty) and the boys are
seeking approval via non-conformity (the rebellious grunge-shock look). Of
course, industry has no problem embracing both themes.
The program also pointed out that the industry is not interested in
older consumers, finding them more resistant to their efforts to influence
them. The teenagers are not only most easily influenced, they are also flush
with money given to them by parents who feel guilty for their absence from
the kids' lives, and so good marketing marks.
- Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
Behalf Of Brent Silby
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:27 PM
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The Status of Memetics as a Science
[Lawrence wrote:"The only danger I can see to memetics (other than
that it might be poorly
done and waste time) is that it might give rise to an engineering
application that might be misused ethically or socially."]
I think this is already happening -- just look at the advertising
industry.
Brent.
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