Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA03388 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:56:50 +0100 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:49:28 +0100 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: The Tipping Point Message-ID: <20010415144928.B787@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <3AD61967.20283.B0C4E9@localhost>; <20010414094609.A401@reborntechnology.co.uk> <3AD891ED.20672.5777E8@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <3AD891ED.20672.5777E8@localhost>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:07:41PM -0500 From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:07:41PM -0500, joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2001, at 9:46, Robin Faichney wrote:
>
> > The tipping point phenomenon occurs at the level of the pile,
> > obviously. Individual grains don't have tipping points, and nobody
> > claims they do. But you claim that, through "top-down causation", the
> > tipping point exerts an influence on the individual grain, while I
> > say, at that level, what is happening is simply interaction between
> > individual grains (and gravity etc.). Nothing in that paragraph (or
> > in anything else you've written that I've seen) supports your claim.
> >
> Those 'individual grains' of yours are supported by other grains,
> which are supported by others, eventually involving the entire pile.
And how, exactly, does that statement of the obvious support your claim
that individual grains are affected by the tipping point?
> > > Next, you're gonna be
> > > telling me that you can take the components of a TV apart and still
> > > watch BBC. What happens to those signals depends upon a global
> > > interrelation between those electronic components, and changing even
> > > one of them can alter the system beyond the point of signal
> > > receptivity.
> >
> > You're confusing scepticism regarding vertical causation with
> > reductionism. I've said several times that I regard the tipping
> > point phenomenon as being just as real as are the individual grains.
> > I'm not a reductionist. I also think a TV show is as real as a
> > resistor. But what you're saying is that the individual components of
> > the TV are affected by the type of program that's on.
> >
> Actually, they are; the received signal tells the electron gun where
> to aim its beams to produce the picture, and what frequencies, in
> what proportions relative to each other, issue from the speakers
> (absolute volume and brightness are, of course, locally controlled).
> Do you mean to tell me that your TV doesn't work that way?
There is a very clear train of causation, not only in the TV itself, but
even in your description, from internal components to picture and sound.
NOT vice versa! I think you'd be wise to drop this metaphor, Joe.
-- Robin Faichney Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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