Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA26814 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:16:21 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:18:56 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Determinism Message-ID: <3AD5FFA0.8939.4C0E44@localhost> In-reply-to: <F1432ZhCl8aii08N8yx00006333@hotmail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 12 Apr 2001, at 14:04, Scott Chase wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Aaron Agassi" <agassi@erols.com>
> >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> >Subject: Re: Determinism
> >Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 13:08:32 -0400
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com>
> >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> >Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 12:48 PM
> >Subject: Re: Determinism
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: <joedees@bellsouth.net>
> > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >Subject: Re: Determinism
> > > >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:24:11 -0500
> > > >
> > > >On 11 Apr 2001, at 12:31, Aaron Agassi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Robin Faichney" <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
> > > > > To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 6:18 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Determinism
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 12:45:41AM -0500,
> > > > > > joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The only way two scenarios can be absolutely identical
> > > > > > > > is if
> >you
> > > > > > > > look at one scenario twice. In which case, the same
> > > > > > > > decision would be made.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I hope you don't think that's a glib or tricksy answer.
> > > > > > > > I
> >mean
> > > > > > > > it absolutely seriously. If everything is the same,
> > > > > > > > then everything will be the same.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But the same situation cannot ever recur; even memory of
> > > > > > > the
> >first
> > > > > > > would be too much, as would the simple molecular changes
> > > > > > > of ourselves and our environs. The impossible is an
> > > > > > > illegitimate hypothetical.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you'd been reading to understand, rather than skimming to
> > > > > >
> >argue,
> > > > > > you'd have seen that's exactly what I meant.
> > > > > >
> > > > > But he assumes that limits to simulation must also then apply
> > > > > to initial reality!
> > > > >
> > > >No, I'm saying that since nonrepeatable situations (such as
> > > >historical ones repeated absolutely exactly) cannot by definition
> > > >be rerun, it is a logically misplaced article of faith to assume
> > > >any result whatsoever from such impossible trials.
> > > >
> > > If you were to rewind the tape of history (or an historical
> > > process like evolution) and push play,
> >
> >Which is an impossible, but never the less legitimate, hypothetical.
> >
Not for the purpose of proving a positive, but only for the purpose of
eliminating a competing alternative.
> >
> > >who's to say you'd get the same result twice?
> >
> >But it is one hypothesis. And what's the alternative? Nothing less
> >than the rejection of causality as universal.
> >
But that's okay. Ask the P-E pairs, or ask free humans engaged in
their own sociocultural brownian motions. You can do without the
blanketing security and comfort of your Superdetermination
hypothesis, Linus.
> >
> So you think that if the tape was rewound, everything would happen in
> *EXACTLY* the same manner?
>
> Perhap you are conflating idiographic science (historical disciplines
> dealing with unique events) with nomothetic science (disciplines
> dealing with repeatable events).
>
Yeah, he is, and he thinks that the same rules can apply to both
disciplines, when in the case of idiography, there isn't even a
'same.'
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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