Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA20966 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:12:52 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:15:24 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Determinism Message-ID: <3AD3B02C.4135.798B9A@localhost> In-reply-to: <00c301c0c112$6cb75460$5eaefea9@rcn.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 9 Apr 2001, at 12:30, Aaron Agassi wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <joedees@bellsouth.net>
> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 4:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Determinism
>
>
> On 5 Apr 2001, at 3:57, Aaron Agassi wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <joedees@bellsouth.net>
> > To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: Determinism
> >
> >
> > On 3 Apr 2001, at 11:26, Chris Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > > To completely model a system, first, your map would have to be
> > > > coextensive with the territory, thus doubling it; then you'd
> > > > need a map to represent the Heideggerian change that mapping,
> > > > which requires perception of, therefore interaction with, would
> > > > make to the system, then another map of this further altering
> > > > recursion, and so on ad nauseum ad infinitum. Due to this
> > > > infinite progress, it is, IN PRINCIPLE, impossible to completely
> > > > represent a concrete empirical system, such as a mind or an
> > > > ecology.
> > >
> > > The practical difficulties of the mapping aren't really relevant.
> > > The point is that *in principle* if you could have perfect
> > > knowledge you could perfectly predict. There are no ghosts in any
> > > machines. In practice we can only work within practical
> > > boundaries.
> > >
> > Actually, the idea that perfect knowledge of the present would allow
> > perfect prediction of the future omits the fact that some events are
> > indeed random, i.e. uncaused, such as positron-electron pairs
> > winking into and out of existence in phase space (since their energy
> > states cancel each other out, the principle of conservation of
> > mass/energy is not violated). Although quantum fluctuations permit
> > such events to happen, and even their statistical probability can be
> > calculated, the certain knowledge of where/when a particular pair
> > will appear is inpossible to determine; in this sense, not only
> > uncertainty, but also indeterminism, is part and parcel of the
> > empirical universe.
> >
> > *Quantum silliness. Bah, humbug!
> >
> No Albertmass turkey for YOU, Scrooge! This blithe dismissal
> does not even rise to the level of an hominem, for nothing in
> particular is cited for attack.
> >
> > It is a false dichotomy to insist that either
> > the universe is wholly random and arbitrary, or it is
> > superdetermined. Clearly, most of the astronomical events are
> > indeed determined by mass, velocity and gravitational concerns,
> > while on the microphysical level, some events are not so determined.
> >
> > *Then you are taking the view that, as with Brownian motion,
> > Indeterminacy averages out on the macro level. Thus rendering the
> > point moot, even where it valid.
> >
> It would only be moot if all averaging out occurs to an absolute
> degree, and this could only happen with infinitely large objects. The
> statistical difference between absolute ans actual quantum averaging
> may not be very significant for a thrown football, but neither is it
> nonexistent.
>
> *Since I am skeptical of Quantum Mechanics to begin with, I cannot
> reject any particular interpretation or ramifications even more so,
> without additional reasons. Indeed, if there is any deviation from
> average, that would play into Chaos Theory, having major
> ramifications, cascading into ever greater macro frames of reference.
> If.
>
You need to visit Everette Allie's website; Chris Lofting can give
you the addy.
>
> ===============================================================
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>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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