Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA11157 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 6 Apr 2001 20:33:54 +0100 Message-ID: <005301c0bed5$604c52a0$ad08bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <E14kN8u-0004pD-00@gaea.uk.clara.net> Subject: Re: The Demise of a Meme Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:08:01 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Brooker <dbrooker@clara.co.uk>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: The Demise of a Meme
>
> > Arbitrary = without reference to the state or process of affairs
> > purportedly represented. Thus, onomotopoeic words (such as
> > 'hiss' for the sound a snake makes) are not arbitrary or by mutual
> > convention, since the sound of the term resembles the sound made
> > by the referent, while the name 'snake' to refer to the no-legged
> > critter that so hisses is an arbitrary term, agreed upon by mutual
> > convention; we could just as well call snakes 'egbert's', if we all
> > agreed to..
>
> This is ok so long as you keep within the boundaries of the system -
> the English language. But do all languages follow this pattern for the
> sound a snake makes? If they don't, which is likely (just an opinion)
> why have generations of English speakers chosen to use a word that is
> onomotopoeic?
<< Considering the Dutch language, no...I don 't recall any patterns that
would follow this concept as for the word ' hiss ' that is.
But on the other hand, we did and still use what you can consider slang,
or flash, jargon, gibberish, lingo, double Dutch ( what 's in a name, he
!?).
We have names for animals in our language that refers to the sound
they make, like " oehoe ", that is a owl or " karekiet " that is a kind of
bird,
or jif- jaf, a kind of bird etc.
But for the sound that a snake makes, we don 't use another word than
snake. That is in general, if we put the word in context we use the exact
term, we give the snake a name....boa, anaconda, viper etc.
For the word " hiss " there is no translation....
> I haven't looked up the etymology of snake, but the slightly hissing
> sound of 'SN' evokes an echo of an hiss. This is only to suggest that
> what appears arbitrary today may not always have been so. It's
> apparent arbitrariness may be derived from a collective forgetfulness
> of the word's origin.
Etymological the word snake, or " slang " in Dutch comes from to swing,
from to dangle, from to wind, from to move in twisted ways,...the ways
by which a snake moves.
Best,
Kenneth
( I am, because we are)
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Apr 06 2001 - 20:36:39 BST