Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA01978 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:13:16 GMT Message-ID: <000901c09e4f$15c04120$d709bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010217113823.021498a0@pop3.htcomp.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20010218171310.0212e8a0@pop3.htcomp.net> Subject: Re: Darwinian evolution vs memetic evolution Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:45:53 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Mills <mmills@htcomp.net>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: Darwinian evolution vs memetic evolution
> Kenneth
At 09:57 PM 2/18/01 +0100, you wrote:
Ideas are the phenotypes of neural-memes, memory organization (neural-meme
based) is the genotype.
Wouldn 't it be better to use the viral- meme !?
If so, it isn't obvious to me. Why does this suggest itself to you?
<< I don 't know, it seems logical to me, to imply the possibility that
viral
memes, in whatever way, are responded to by the immune system.
I postulate that the immune system fights not only bacterial infection but
also works upon a ( more) neuro(bio)logical/ psychological/ physiological
level. Only those memes which do act as a causality between gene and
its mutation should count for immune system reponses_ in a sense like
pseudo- genes. In my book, the causality here is a (re)action.
A change in the us surrounding environment causes a change ( a reaction)
in the needs ( phenotypic or genotypic) which we acquire to stay alive,
which in turn causes a change ( we (re)act upon those changes) in our
behavior.
If you do you can include the immune system in your concept and the
passing of ideas to soma and germline wouldn 't be a problem at all.
This sounds interesting. Can you describe it more?
<< Of course, but it is not that mush different of what you already read
upon this list.
This is pure speculation, but IMO there is a possible connection between
the immune system and mental states, with that respect that the immune
system has to have what you should could call a ' mind variant '.
Go back to what I defend here upon this list. That is_we are born with a
germ- line to memes ( a memetic starterset) which we get from our parents.
Genetic based or not, it doesn 't matter.
If we grow up and we come across ideas, treats, promises,..( than seen
as virusses) which would upset our ' normal ' neurological fysiology, than
already enhanced troughout that period of time ( learning, experience,..),
than our ' mind immune system ' acts upon these accordingly.
Viral ideas/ memes do possess IMO actualy what you should could call
epitopes, I prefer to call them ' temptations lines ' or ' hook lines ',
which
are responded to by anti- bodies.
As by religion the temptations/ hooks are legio, these are the virusses
( sex/ hate/ egoism/...) Built in anti- bodies are hell, sin, being a bad
person,
crime, unemployment,...
Viral ideas are like true infections which get responded to by anti- bodies
of a memetic nature.
If we now take this proposition serious than IMO mind virsusses are
as " real " as real diseases germs which like other diseases can be trans-
ferred to the germline to genes. Ideas about religion ( or the ones to
contradict them) can in that way be passed to soma and germline and in
turn to the progeny.
Let me remind you of a link...
www.annals.org/issues/v131n11/full/199912070-00019.html
" Memes " as Infectious Agents in Psychosomatic Illness by Stephen Ross.
Vincent or Robin wrote, that noone is born in a religion, but in fact IMO,
that ain 't totally true. You " are" born as a Christian if you were born
in
the midst of the Christian community, and you will be a Christian whole
your life if you don 't break free from your surroundings/ family/
community.
If you do, you " react " upon notified changes which changed your per-
sonal needs, or the other way round....see the New Born Christians.
IMO, each of us is born with a specific set of memes ( species or commu-
nity or family bound) which is related to those categories (genetic or me-
metic based) and still IMO, you cannot disgard that. You only can contra-
dict, work against those things inbedded in your germline to genes and -
memes in the face of experience, learning and skepticism.
Hopes this helps,
Best,
Kenneth
( I am, because we are)
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